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C Melody Mouthpiece pitch

6K views 23 replies 7 participants last post by  jhammons01 
#1 ·
Could anyone tell me what pitch I should tune my C Melody mouthpiece to? I have an original Buescher mouthpiece and a new black ebay one. The Buescher is stuffy sounding and tends to squeak, and I found bass clarinet reeds work best. I really like the ebay mouthpiece because it uses alto sax reeds, but it plays so sharp I have to pull the neck all the way out and the mouthpiece to the end of the cork, and is still out of tune. I'm beginning to think its an embouchure issue. Thanks.
 
#2 ·
which one did you get off of ebay?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-Melody-Sa...953891?hash=item237642f0e3:g:2iEAAOxyrM5THRp4

Are you using a chromatic tuner to check for A-440?

And yes, the old C-Mels from back in the day, they were horrible.....at least all the ones that I have gotten out of the cases from the 100s of C-Mels I have played with.

The reason I asked so many Qs is because, with that MPC I posted, I "do" have to push the MPC pretty far onto the cork, but usually I have at least 1/4" left and the horn is playing in tune.

The CG Conn New Wonder makes me push the MPC almost all the way, The Buescher TT has over a 1/4" left.....lemme see if I can post a quick pic
 
#4 ·
I would guess that your "Ebay mouthpiece" is an alto mouthpiece, which will be way too small a chamber for a C melody and will tune so sharp that it will almost fall off.

If you use a tenor mouthpiece with a smallish chamber you will probably have reasonable results. For example, Selmer Larry Teal; Vandoren; and I'm sure others will chime in. Tenor is much closer to C melody dimensions than Alto.

I don't believe in the "mouthpiece alone pitch tuning exercise" because all mouthpieces have different shank lengths.
 
#8 ·
so, that's weird and I wonder why the difference in results. Now, I'm using a Bass Clarinet reed....A Rico....and I have forgotten what number it is now, but probably the most common as I didn't specify 'any' particular number when I bought it at a local music store. I guess I could dig into it further and see.

What Reed are you using?

And this is fascinating for the simple fact that a Buescher TT with that same MPC produces the such excellent tone for me....the only variable being possibly the reed.
 
#9 ·
I was reading through some of Ralph Morgan's notes on this topic a while back. Many of his notes and papers are very technical, but here is the gist of it from what I understand:

A-440 means that an extremely finite amount of a "material", when set in vibratory motion, will produce the pitch level of A. This material can be a metal bar, wire, wood, air, etc. When set in vibratory motion it vibrates at 440 cycles per second. Imagine a metal bar as on a xylophone, when struck it will vibrate. If it is properly constructed with a precise amount of metal, it will vibrate at 440 cycles per second. If it has too much metal, it will vibrate slower thus being flat. If not enough metal, it will vibrate faster thus being sharp.

On a saxophone, the "material" set in motion is the column of air. The air set in motion is the cubic volume of air inside the instrument; however, you also need to include the amount of air inside the mouthpiece…all the way to the tip of the mouthpiece.

For a saxophone to be in tune, the tone must be produced by an exact and finite cubit volume of air. In the design formulas for saxophones, those cubic volumes are measured in the thousandths of cubic centimeters, so small they are not visible to the naked eye. If the volume of air in the mouthpiece is too small, the air will vibrate too fast. If the volume of air in the mouthpiece is too large, then it will vibrate too slow. In either case, the instrument will be out of tune.

Assuming the C-Melody saxophone was designed using the same design formulas as other saxophones, then it would make sense that only a properly designed C-Melody mouthpiece would tune well. The problem with many modern C-Melody mouthpieces is they are simply cut-down tenor pieces or modified alto pieces with no consideration to the interior cubic volume of air…thus the cause of many intonation problems with the instrument.

I will try to put together a more detailed blog article someday on the topic, but hopefully, this makes a bit of sense.

On another topic which I will not elaborate on much right now is that using reeds designed for other mouthpieces can cause problems as well…using bass clarinet reeds on a tenor mouthpiece, or tenor reeds on alto, etc. Again, more on this in a future blog article, but the basic principal is: The slope of the vamp of a reed is designed to be symmetrical with the facing curve of a mouthpiece. If you are using the incorrect reed, it is not vibrating as efficiently as it should.

So this brings us to my shameless plug on the Morgan C-Melody Mouthpiece…

The following is text from the Morgan Mouthpieces Website:

Quite possibly the best C-Melody Tenor Saxophone Mouthpiece ever made. This mouthpiece was designed by our Master Crafter, Erik Greiffenhagen and was approved by Ralph Morgan. This is not just a shortened tenor mouthpiece like other companies offer. This mouthpiece has an interior specifically designed for the C-Melody Saxophone. It has a large round chamber with low baffle. It is designed to use modern tenor saxophone reeds and standard size tenor ligatures. The material is the Morgan Mouthpiece Company's 100% pure rubber formula, which is the same as was used by manufacturers in the 1920s-1950s. The facing curve, interior chamber and baffle are all shaped by hand. It is a true hand-crafted pure hard rubber C-Melody Saxophone Mouthpiece. If you are a serious C-Melody player, then the Morgan C-Melody Tenor Saxophone Mouthpiece is for you.

These are fairly expensive mouthpieces; however, if you are a serious C-Melody player, then it is certainly worth giving it a try.

https://www.morganmouthpieces.com/products/morgan-c-melody-tenor-saxophone-mouthpiece

Ralph Morgan left us tons of research and articles which I hope to get out on the website. Check the Blog every now and then for more articles:

https://www.morganmouthpieces.com/blogs/news
 
#12 ·
...On a saxophone, the "material" set in motion is the column of air. The air set in motion is the cubic volume of air inside the instrument; however, you also need to include the amount of air inside the mouthpiece…all the way to the tip of the mouthpiece.

For a saxophone to be in tune, the tone must be produced by an exact and finite cubit volume of air. ...

Assuming the C-Melody saxophone was designed using the same design formulas as other saxophones, then it would make sense that only a properly designed C-Melody mouthpiece would tune well. The problem with many modern C-Melody mouthpieces is they are simply cut-down tenor pieces or modified alto pieces with no consideration to the interior cubic volume of air…..
No question that a properly designed C-melody MP would tune the best on a C melody sax.

I suggest, however, that a MP bought from Ebay which purports to be a C melody MP and uses alto sax reeds and tunes so sharp that it almost falls off the cork, is probably an alto mouthpiece in chamber size and facing dimensions.

At least for trial purposes I think a small chamber tenor MP would probably be reasonably close to the correct interior volume for a C melody. And small chamber tenor MPs are everywhere, you can hardly turn around without stubbing your toe on one.
 
#11 ·
The length of the air column determines the vibrational frequency.
Length only. Other dimensional characteristics can determine other tonal characteristics.
This is why french horns can play tune notes, but they do not sound the same.

MP volume is intended to replace the volume of the part
Of the cone that is missing at the tip end. Notice that this depends on the length.


F = n V / 2 L

Being the simplest such formula for e.g. The xylophone key.

F is the resonant frequency; the pitch you hear, essentially.

V is the speed of the wave through the vibrating material

N is any integer. N = 1 is the fundamental frequency.
Higher values of n are the overtones

L is the length of the vibrating material

Volume does not enter into it.


dsm
 
#14 ·
The length of the air column determines the vibrational frequency.
Length only. Other dimensional characteristics can determine other tonal characteristics.
This is why french horns can play tune notes, but they do not sound the same.

MP volume is intended to replace the volume of the part
Of the cone that is missing at the tip end. Notice that this depends on the length.

F = n V / 2 L

Being the simplest such formula for e.g. The xylophone key.

F is the resonant frequency; the pitch you hear, essentially.

V is the speed of the wave through the vibrating material

N is any integer. N = 1 is the fundamental frequency.
Higher values of n are the overtones

L is the length of the vibrating material

Volume does not enter into it.

dsm
That's awesome.
 
#16 ·
No.....but if you read the thread, you'll see where we both purchased THE EXACT SAME MPC off of Ebay and we have THE EXACT SAME Beuscher TT 1920s C-Mel saxophone.

Your assumption that the MPC "We" bought from ebay being "just an Alto" that is "About to fall off the cork" is incorrect
 
#17 ·
Just to entertain myself, I did what turf3 inferred to. I took out a bunch of Alto MPCs and a few C-Mels (including the Ebay MPC)

There is no way to confuse the two. The Alto MPC is a little of an inch in OD whereas the C-Mel is closer to 1 1/4" OD. Not to mention the CMel is 1/4" longer.

I was able to get both to play A=440, however the CMel would also have proper intonation with both Cs being neither sharp or flat. The Alto MPC on the same horn would never find an intonation that was correct. I was pulling the MPC nearly off the cork to the the lower C anywhere near where it was supposed to be, but the higher C was way off....
 
#19 ·
All right, so we have finally established that two people have the same mouthpiece, and the same horn, and one person pushes on about an inch and the other one has to pull out till the MP is almost falling off.

It appears that the OP's combination of the individual instrument and embouchure and individual MP (because they do vary a bit) causes him to tune sharp, so he needs a bigger chamber in the MP so he can push it further on.

So, I return to the suggestion to try small chamber tenor mouthpieces.
 
#20 ·
^^That's why this thread is intriguing. Why are there two totally different results from two identical "Test" (if you will)

The only thing left to do is start physically measuring the two test MPCs....who knows, maybe someone got an Alto MPC in their package by mistake.......stranger things happen on a daily basis
 
#22 ·
I'd be curious to see where the mouthpiece sits when you tune the regular b to first overtone (aka 'long' b) fingering. I've found that doing this cures many intonation problems---at least intonation of the sax with itself.

If, when you find this position, the sax is way off A=440, then I would predict that the mouthpiece has the incorrect internal dimensions.
 
#23 ·
Hi everyone, sorry I haven't responded back much after starting this thread. I have tried tenor reeds on the mouthpiece and its still tuning extremely sharp. I have tried everything with my embouchure. Being a band director I typically have to trouble shoot my students' embouchures all the time. Whenever my intonation gets out of whack with my bari, or anything else, I go back to tuning my mouthpiece to see where I have gone wrong and fix it. I went back to the original Buescher mouthpiece with a tenor reed and it plays in tune, just not with a good tone. I would prefer the bright tone of the Ebay mouthpiece vs. the stuffy tone of the Buescher, but I'll take stuffy tone over out of tune any day.
 
#24 ·
If you hold down all the main keys and your pinky i.e. "C" and squeeze the reed to the upper register, then only using your Left Middle finger making the higher C, do they sound the same? are they hitting the same note?

Do you have a chromatic tuner?


Is yours close to the one in the video?
 
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