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Which modern horns have the best tone?

25K views 105 replies 56 participants last post by  Warhen 
#1 ·
(Apologies if this has been discussed before -- if so, pointers to such threads would be welcome!)

There seems to be a widespread opinion that modern horns, whatever their advantages in terms of intonation, mechanism, or general versatility, tend to lack the beauty and complexity of tone that characterizes the best vintage saxes. But are there exceptions to this? Which modern horns come closest?
 
#4 ·
of course you will have a number of participants to this thread each offering their brand of choice and I am afraid that all you are going to end up with will be a list of names, which more or less ( because not everyone in the forum will answer) will reflect the entire spectrum of brands out there with a slight penchant for the more expensive ones.

we've in fact similar threads, some even with a poll ( which of course limits somewhat the choice)

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?199519-Best-modern-tenor-sax
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...k-is-the-best-MODERN-alto-on-the-market-today
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?27325-Best-Modern-Sax-for
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?81955-best-modern-tenor
 
#5 ·
The Borgani is certainly an option. I've also played a few great Keilwerths. For me Yamahas definitely lack something in the sound, and I have not really tried a Yangisawa. Modern Selmers don't do it for me and neither did any of the Taiwan horns I tried. I'm curious about the Rampone & Cazzani horns.
 
#41 ·
Fair question. It's hard to describe a tone in non-subjective terms, but it's easier to name players. Personally, my tone model on tenor is Sonny Rollins of the Saxophone Colossus period. On alto, harder to choose, but Lee Donaldson comes very close.
 
#14 ·
I was going to say "the one with a good player on the end of it".
But that might've sounded nasty.
.....
Was also my first move. I refrained. Let's keep positive....
 
#12 ·
I tried a load of altos over a the course of a month last year, and I was please to find that most of the main brands sounded good, including most of the horns mentioned in this thread. I like horns that feel fairly neutral-they get out of the way and let the player's sound come through, and for me the two that felt that way were the Selmer reference and the Yamaha 82z.
I settled on the 82z after a lot of trials, and I've been happy with it.
 
#102 ·
Good for you, JJ! My thoughts on this to an extent also. I lean toward a modern, focused, bit on the bright side sound with a "crackle" to it. However I don't want a horn or a reed, ligature, or mouthpiece that does it all for me to the extent I have to work harder against its tendencies to get the sound I want. That said, significant changes (without working too very hard with embouchure, breath application etc.) are very possible with different reed, ligature, mouthpiece -- and custom necks, i.e on the Yamaha Custom series horns! To me an UL Z ii or Woodstone goes all-out on the bright, loud, buzzy side and is not for me -- though I love to play that way *sometimes* -- just not all the time. On the other side, I find the TENOR black-lacquered 875EX sound a little smallish and mellow, if not really so "dark" in comparison with the ZZ -- especially the Z ii. Believe it or not (and I was not a believer), the silver-plated Z ii sounds quite loud and bright in comparison also, but in a different way from the UL Z ii. So my take -- a lacquered, or even a black-lacquered Z ii can do it all with the right choices from the assortment of reeds, ligs, mouthpieces, and custom necks available. To some people this means Yamahas are "bland" -- but to me it just means Yamaha has locked onto their sound (contemporary? all-purpose?) concept perfectly, and offers a very high-quality and versatile product(s) in their Custom horns.
 
#39 ·
I won't disagree with that, but I've not played everything. I do know that my M60 does everything well. Period. As a working axe, I would take it over the pristine SBA that I played recently. I know that there are tons of great playing modern horns and personal preference and pride of ownership play a large role in threads like this one but I have my horn for life and that says a lot for the Viking. Not interested in anything else.
 
#18 ·
If you are NOT looking for a Selmer clone, the Borgani Jubilee is an excellent alternative. I owned and played Selmers (Balanced Action, Serie III, Ref 36) for a couple decades, but the Jubilee has been my go-to horn for the past 10+ years. FWIW as a tone reference, I no longer own any Selmers, my other tenors include Buescher Big B, Buescher Top Hat & Cane, and King Super 20.
 
#20 ·
Based on my own collection of tenors, YTS82Z UL (Japan), Mauriat PMXT 66 RCL, Orpheo Signature by Steve Goodson (has G3 key) and System 54 Vintage (all Taiwanese), they're all slightly different, MPC choice is a big factor. The best is the YTS82Z, the Mauriat and my silver Orpheo are very impressive and ergonomically are a joy to play. You wouldn't be disappointed with any of them. However the best at impersonating a VI are the Z/UL and the Mauriat. Trying a few necks which make a difference, Underslung Saxgourmet for my VI and YTS 82Z and some standard -for reference.

YTS82Z - 27.5mm.
Mauriat PMXT66 RCL - 27.5mm.
Orpheo Signature - Less than 27.5mm (haven't measured it).
System 54 - Larger than 27.5mm probably 28mm.
 
#21 ·
My modern tenors are a III,VII and a Barone.
I like the focused core of the Selmers.

However, I mostly play vintage tenors King, Martin, Buescher, Conn, Keilwerth, Kohlert
 
#22 ·
Of course the perception of "the best tone" is a very personal thing, so the discussion may be useless.

For me the Rampone and Cazzanis are nearer tonewise to vintage American horns than others that I know, including the Borganis -talking about tenors.

Sold my Borgani Jubilee "Vintage" but kept the Rampones (...and mostly play my Super 20s or SBA)
 
#34 ·
For me the Rampone and Cazzanis are nearer tonewise to vintage American horns than others that I know, including the Borganis -talking about tenors. Sold my Borgani Jubilee "Vintage" but kept the Rampones (...and mostly play my Super 20s or SBA)
How recent is your Rampone? I own a 2004 soprano which is my favorite soprano ever, never tried their tenors. It's well built and sounds so mellow, I just love it.

But I did hear from more then one source, including a reputable repairman in SF that R&C's manufacturing quality decayed a lot in the past decade. To the point most need a full setup out of the box to become playable. Curious whether there is truth in that.
 
#23 ·
I'll concur with those who point out that it is the player and not the horn; and with those who pointed out this thread is just another popularity contest. I'll add that with a few exceptions, most of the models I've owned/played vary in tonal effects merely because every horn is usually different from other similar models.

With modern altos, I've owned several different models mentioned above including Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Selmer Ref 54, R&C, JK, and Unison. With vintage altos, I've owned Buescher, Conn, King, and Selmer. In thinking back through all of them, only a few stick in my memory - and not because of the way they sounded (they ALL sounded like altos), but for the way they sang to me, the way they responded, and for their intonation.

AND, I'll offer that no one should reach a conclusion about tone based on only one or two examples of each brand and era. However, in my travels and retail searches, I found ONE model that had a different tone from the others and which was consistent across the six or more versions I play-tested before buying one. And that was the Reference 54 alto.

I now have in my closet a '25 King, a '32 Cigar Cutter, an early '60's MKVI, a Ref 54, a Buescher Big B, a Buescher TH&C, and a new Yanagisawa A-WO1. Of those models, the A-WO1 is my favorite, followed by the Big B and the Cigar Cutter. But not just for tone, but for overall ease of play, response, and intonations.

The ONLY way you are going to answer your question is to play them all. And the end-result may be that the one you choose may have been the one with the best set-up rather than design or brand-name. DAVE
 
#24 ·
Sure it's all subjective, but a popularity contest can be helpful too, if only to see which names come up the most. Not that I'm likely to get a chance to try them all anytime soon, unfortunately (there seems to be nowhere I could do so round these parts). And though I'm sure the "it's the player not the horn" thing is largely true, nevertheless I don't see many people around here playing Bundys or Jupiters... The horn counts for a lot, in my experience anyway. I sound very different on my two vintage altos (Buescher Crat and Martin Handcraft), and neither sounds much like my King tenor.
 
#25 ·
To avoid making this just another list, it would be helpful if people could give a short explanation of their answers -- what's special about your preferred horn's tone? Dave, you say, the Ref 54 had a consistently different tone from the others, but how so?
 
#26 ·
it took 19 replies before someone mentioned JK ? (Thanks, Dave).

Shocking.

I'll concur.....Keilwerth.

There seems to be a widespread opinion that modern horns, whatever their advantages in terms of intonation, mechanism, or general versatility, tend to lack the beauty and complexity of tone that characterizes the best vintage saxes. But are there exceptions to this?
Again, much of this has been discussed in previous threads provided by Milandro earlier...what the 'signature' elements of the 'vintage tone' are, what makes a complex tone, what models people feel are vintage-y sounding, etc.

Borgani, another good one. Rampone. B & S (I know they are outta biz, but that's fairly recently).

The Buffet 400 is an interesting asterisk in this discussion, too. Not an utter success...but a much, much better try than most.

Some of the boutique brands folks have mentioned simply burn my toast if one starts to argue they sound as full and complex as the classic post 980's horns...but don't get me started on that. Suffice it to say I prefer my ears to answer, not someone's one-person marketing dept. or post-recording studio tweaking.

But, in fairness, you simply asked which sound good, full, rich. Not which sound like a 50's top-shelfer.

Yes, it's subjective to a degree, because again folks' definition of "sounds like vintage' ...or 'sounds good'..or sounds 'complex'...varies. But it's not subjective in that the fact IS: horns have different tone....their focus, spread, diversity of overtones or dearth thereof....these are intrinsic to the design of the horn.

*The other thing to keep in mind is this: the paradigm of the saxophone tone changed starting in the mid 70's (not just me saying this, Tim Price has also discussed it). It wasn't necessarily like manufacturers just 'lost the formula' on tone. Whether the changes were accidental ( the result of modern manufacturing techniques resulting in a sonic change ?), or intended (intended to move the sonic character of the instrument based upon the 'modern' contexts it was now being played in) is an interesting topic of discussion in and of itself.

Yanagisawa and Yama Z Customs: I mention because although they will not necessarily 'fool' one into thinking they are a 10M or Comm III...the width and breadth of their overtones and overall lushness of sound is an element which many associate with the Vintage Sound. Cannot much argue than a nice contemporary Selmer, France doesn't sound superb, either.
 
#28 ·
Right now I am in a transitional stage in my modern horn preferences. My main horn was a Couf Superba I. It has a great sound, but loses some resonance and becomes a bit bright up in the palm keys.

I recently bought a Borgani Jubilee. It's early days yet, but it could become my preferred modern horn. It has a dark big tone and does not get bright or lose resonance up high.

I also have a Martin Comm III, SA80, and a 10M. The 10M is my favorite right now for similar reasons as the Borgani. The Martin would up there too but it doesn't have the bigness in sound of the 10M, Superba, or Borg.

My ex-teacher recently bought a Cannonball with a silver neck. He was playing Kings, Conns, and Martins before that. I played it a bit and it had a big dark vintage like tone. It played great!
 
#29 ·
The problem inherent in the question is your use of the word "best." That's a kinda subjective ask. What you're gonna get is a list of everybody's favorites. Should be interesting, nonetheless.
 
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