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OLLLD Kings

4K views 31 replies 13 participants last post by  Stocker 
#1 ·
I've got a really old King alto, looks like it was a 1910 Kohlert stencil. Who has these horns and what do they think? I definitely have some problems with mine even with the shop having done a full adjustment on it. It's cool to have such an oldie, but definitely not the best action. What are they really worth?
 
#2 ·
I had an old one but not as old as yours. Mine was an alto from the late 1920s. It was not very good sounding. Intonation and ergonomics were iffy. King didn't come into their own until the time of the Vol True models. If yours has two octave keys, it is worth very little.
 
#4 ·
I have a King alto from 1925 - plays okay if not a bit stuffy. I'm sure an overhaul would help it tremendously.

I'll never sell it though because it was gift from within my extended family. I never tried to assess its value, either. I'm sure it wouldn't be worth much. It is worth more to me as a player than as an object for sale. DAVE
 
#6 ·
Good question! The phrase "looks like a Kohlert stencil" is really suspicious.

American King saxes will, as far as I know invariably, have "H.N. White Co." engraved on them. These are a completely different product manufactured by a completely different company than instruments titled "King" or "New King" manufactured by Keilwerth or possibly some company related to Keilwerth (sorry, I'm not up on European sax manufacturers at all).

As far as the H.N White Kings, in my opinion, if you want a viable instrument to play, I wouldn't get involved with anything prior to the Zephyr for alto, tenor, or baritone. I have tried out more than one of the previous models and found their design and intonation to be - shall we say - "interesting". Sopranos are probably a different kettle of fish, as most companies didn't refresh the designs as often and the old sopranos from the 10s and 20s are often quite a bit better than their alto-tenor-bari contemporaries (the classic example here is Holton).
 
#8 ·
Yes, according to Saxpics (info sometimes iffy there - and sadly no longer updated/improved, so incorrect/ambiguous/disproven claims have been left there for the world to still reference - but nevertheless a useful resource) before King started producing saxes in-house they actually had 'em made by Kohlert and Evette as well.

I would love to see a photo of your horn, Ragna.

Always a roll of the dice to refurb a sax that old...I don't care if it's a King, Conn, Buescher, whatever....a pre-1915 horn is going to have some inherent qualities as far as playability/practicality.....

But darn, I'd like to see a Kohlert that old ! It's a cool find....

Personally, as far as bona-fide Kings - I feel the Voll-True II's are excellent HN White horns; I don't mean 'acceptable', I mean really signature and wonderfully unique vintage saxes; and some of their older splitbells, while they generally get trashed online...I have had pretty good experience with once they were worked up and IMHO do not deserve as bad a rap as they get. Some splitbell Tenors I have done were darn Beasts, really....
 
#10 ·
I took some photos to add, but I can't get them added to the forum. The upload fails with an error each time, and I'm not sure why. Any advice would help.

Looking at more King serial number charts, I'm not real certain where my horn lies. The serial number is 37XXX and some charts list this in the 1910-1915 range, one chart said 1916-1917 . . . so I'm not 100% sure what I have.
 
#12 ·
OK, so you went to "Go Advanced" button at bottom of reply window, yes ?

Then on next paged, scrolled down to Attachments button, yes ? Which should have opened the attachments window.

And it didn't upload ?

http://www.hnwhite.com/Serial Numbers.htm is usually the site I use, which puts your horn at around 1915. So it may be a domestically-produced one. A pic will tell, as the telltale signs of Kohlert vs. King are fairly obvious....

If you still cannot upload, perhaps use an online image hosting site (photobucket, etc) and provide a link to it....
 
#32 ·
Looking at more King serial number charts, I'm not real certain where my horn lies. The serial number is 37XXX and some charts list this in the 1910-1915 range, one chart said 1916-1917 . . . so I'm not 100% sure what I have.
The commonly-found H.N. White serial number chart for that era is only marginally accurate at best. I'd say yours is from 1919. The firm was incorporated in 1918, whereupon the engraving changed (reading "The H.N. White Co." instead of just "Made by H.N. White") - this occurred around serial number 31000.
 
#11 ·
I have a 58xxx series Bb soprano (my research puts it's manufacture at around 1919) and I love it to death. Great sound and projection with my Link STM. It just needs an overhaul to put on fresh pads and corks--going to go with black roo pads, which should look killer against the silver body.

Just need to save up the cash for a Super 20 Silversonic.
 
#14 ·
All the curved King sopranos I have played were excellent and maybe the best curvies I have owned. The early opposing bell key altos and tenors were just OK.
+1 on putting your photos on a photobucket site or my favorite flickr. These sites are free and allow you to store your photos and put a link to them here. Be sure to add tags so they are easy to find once you start posting other horns. Here is an example of using tags: https://www.flickr.com/photos/40368649@N04/tags/
Just click on what you want to see. You can always delete horns to make more space.
 
#15 ·
...You can publish pictures directly, post them outside the forum on a hosting site of your choice (I use image shack or photobucket, but you can use other like flickr. ) and then, when you want to publish go to “ go advanced” at the bottom of the publishing box, then a new slightly different window appears with a number of control icons on top of the box, by inserting a link where the icon of a projection screen is you will link the image externally ( so not adding “ weight” to your allocations of attachments) which will appear as a picture in your post.


You call this horn a Kings? Or are you using the plural? There were many horns sold as “ Kings” generally stencils of Italian or Bohemian horns. I once sold Jaye a Kings curved soprano which was, Orsi made, I look forward to see your pictures.
 
#19 ·
Yep it's a King as Dave says; it's also got the funky pinky G# key arrangement those horns had. As Milandro says these horns go for nothing; I've had three altos I bought to get the mouthpieces that were in the cases with them; I don't think I spent as much as $400 to do that. It was like buying mouthpieces that happened to have horns as an accessory.

One of those horns was in decent playing shape and, as JayPDX suggested above, it's really a nice little horn. Not blow-me-down-wow but it has a nice clear tone and intonation seems fine.
 
#21 ·
everything has a price, if you can live with the blemishes of the plating, the ancient mechanics and the intonation of these horns ( which is not bad) they normally cost peanuts. Repairing them, on the contrary will cost manifolds what they are worth on the market.

So, you may find yourself in need of an overhaul which will certainly cost more than this horn with or without an overhaul would be worth. A strange but increasingly common conundrum.
 
#22 ·
I think milandro's assessment is correct. However, if you don't have to pinch pennies and want a vintage alto, then there may be a case to be made for doing an overhaul and making the horn a nice, decent player. There IS something to playing an old horn that sings - the basis for many a conversation from admirers and a thing of pride for the player.

While I don't play mine, if it was the only alto I had, I'd pay the cost of an overhaul and play it with pride, disregarding any cost-benefit analysis. DAVE
 
#23 ·
It isn't as if it's incredibly stupid to invest in these old Kings. As I said, when they are dialed in and regulated, they play far better then their undeserved online reputation, really. Intonation is OK, sound is wonderful and warm, and they blow pretty freely. If I am viewing your pic correctly, this one even has the Front F.....which surprises me a bit - but is good for you.

I recently helped out a newbie here who thought he had scored a deal on picking one of these up (slightly later, 1921) for under $100....then discovered every tech in town wanted between $500-1000 to work it back into shape.

I did it for $325 plus ship. Turned out to be a nice little Alto. So for $450 he ended up with a nicely worked-up old King which made a nice everyday player. That's not a bad deal, in the end (then again, I do not do this on a regular basis).

But indeed, if your investment goes much over $300-350 of repair, or around a $425-50 total investment - and your goal would be to have a reliable-playing Alto...you'd be better off spending $375+ on a different horn, one guaranteed to be in playing shape....
 
#28 ·
Another problem with the early King G# lever is that it doesn't have a stop. You press the lever and the pad moves up but once it has reached the tang of the F# preventing any upward movement, the lever keeps going down.....very annoying, so I cork the body to make a stop. Easy fix but shouldn't be needed like on almost every other brand.
 
#30 ·
Yes, well, that's kind of weird but application of a chunk of cork solves it, as you say, or one could fabricate a stop and attach it to the lever. I find that old horns generally have a couple of these areas of inadequate mechanical design which I end up making small modifications to. My pet peeve is when the stop is located far far away from the key touch so the thing flexes like mad. I usually insert a piece of cork or use a little piece of brass to make up a stop as near as possible to the key touch. Another one that annoys me, and is not so easy to fix, is a long long key like a high F on a baritone, where the whole key might be 10 or 12" long, but the hinge tube is about 3/4" long. Even with guides, there's no way to avoid a lot of side to side slop at the pad, which of course compromises sealing. The best scheme I have come up with is to line a guide with Delrin and then carefully fit the width of the slot in the Delrin to the width of the key arm.
 
#31 ·
Actually, what I meant was funky about the pinky G# is how the pad that lifts to sound G# is located below and to the left of the G# touch, and isn't located in the right-hand stack tone holes. :) I can't think of another horn model with that arrangement.

But what Dave & Jay said about the G# is true, especially with regards to the lost motion in the key. The horn I have that plays okay came with a cork mound built up underneath the key to stop it moving. On one of the other horns I have I was impressed that the G# key moved as much distance after the G# pad opened fully as it had moved to open the pad.
 
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