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Aerophone AE-10 ? New Roland Wind Instrument

240K views 576 replies 104 participants last post by  3dogie 
#1 ·
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#308 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Michael - to play it at a jam, you're going to need to plug it into some sound system - powered speaker, house PA, powered mixer + speaker, keyboard amp. It doesn't have enough power on its own to be heard at a jam. Also, you're going to be disappointed in the sax voices. At a jam, I tend to use the trumpet or muted trumpet voices, or the overdriven guitar or the organ voices. To a sax player, the sax sounds in the Aerophone are far from realistic, just as I assume the trumpet sounds are for real trumpet players, or the violin sound is for a real violin player. (I like the violin sound but it's not very loud. You'll need to kick the volume up on whatever sound reinforcement system you use.) There are some pretty good techno synth voices, but that's not my style or the style of the regular jam I'm in. If you're in one of those lead guitar ******-fests, call up one of the techno lead sounds, turn the amp up to 11, and blow them out the back door.

Edit: LOL. I just noticed that the SOTW software changed one of my words to ******. Apparently, it doesn't think that w a n k e r is suitable for all audiences.
 
#309 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I was thinking I can use the on stage speakers through the mixing board. Does that work or is the house PA or some guitar amp a better bet? I assume the electric piano and the mics all go to the mixing board and the bassist and guitarists use the smaller amps. The two monitors are fed, I assume, from the mixing board. Have I got this right? I've never used any amplification other than a stage mic so am not really savvy on all this electronic stuff and have considered myself lucky from seeing how screwed up it can be dealing with cables, amps, pedal boards and electronic gear up the yin yang. When I get my Black Widow tenor piece I think I might just be able to play without a mic and still blow them away. A Plasticover or a Bari plastic reed ought to do the trick.

Trumpet will be great. And the organ and guitar too as well as some of the synth sounds. I listened to all the good youtube vids and liked those alot.
 
#310 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Hmm. I guess you mean using the monitors, which are there for the players to hear themselves, not the audience. I'd ask to go through the house PA. That way you can adjust how much of the Aerophone is in the mains (for the audience) and also how much is in the monitors (for you and other players).

With a Metalite on my Martin and a Plasticover reed, I can usually be heard without a mic even in a medium-loud band. But a mic is better. The mic goes to the mixer and out to the mains and the monitors. You want to do the same with the Aerophone - an instrument cable from the Aerophone to the input of the mixer. Then whoever's operating the sound system should be able to set levels for the Aerophone in the mains and monitors.
 
#311 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

O.K. I get it now. Thanks Peter. Yeah, I could often play without a mic using either my M7 with a PC, Rigotti Gold or Marca Jazz, as well as with my Berg SS drop baffle piece with a Bari plastic reed. It required blowing pretty hard though to win the war of the w a n k e r s. Now due to having congestive heart failure I'm going to have to play with a mic all the time and forget the loud blowing duels to get above the din. If the mic iand monitors are set to the right level it should be plenty enough to be heard and to hear myself. Hearing myself is often a problem at these type jams. Damn rock drummers are the scion of the devil often enough and in league with the dark guitar forces.
 
#315 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I just bought an Aerophone and a believe it has a problem with the bite sensor. After upgrading the firmware to v2.1 and following several videos and forum hints to customize the bite, breath and vibrator settings, the bite sensor appears to be not be working properly. As I do not know of anyone in the area that has one to compare, I hope one you would be able to confirm something for me.

Out of the box, the tip of the bite sensor did not touch the reed. it sits about 1/32 off the reed. My WX7 bit sensor touches the reed and fairly near the tip which allows for best deflection on the sensor. On this Aerophone, when it does touch the reed, it does so at a little over 1/2 inch from the tip of the reed.

For those with Aerophones, is your bite sensor touching your reed at 1/2 inch from the tip?
 
#316 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

pgrichmond,

The sensor rod should touch the reed, without any pressure applied to it, yes.

I can't get to mine, at the moment, but the rod does touch the reed a short distance from the tip. I would guess a little less than 1/2", but that's not far off. I think I commented that since the reed is flexible, it matters how much you take into your mouth - the maximum response from the sensor is when your lower lip touches the point where the rod touches the reed.

The settings are a bit difficult to get right. I've discussed a couple of problems related to that, in earlier posts.

I had mine playing consistently flat for a while, which is odd because now it's automatically centering after a short while, like my EWI 4000s lip sensor does, though it does feel a bit more natural - so, I can bend the pitch a little, but if I hold my lip still, it always returns to dead on Equal Temperament tuning, no matter how much pressure I'm applying.

I was hoping it would be like the Yamaha WX5, but without the dead band in the middle where a range of lip pressures give the same pitch (i.e. no pitch bend). Outside that range, on the WX5, the pitch or amount of pitch bend, depends on the pressure applied. On my Aerophone, it doesn't. I'm not sure if it's possible to set it more how I want it. It might need a decision from Roland to include it in a firmware update.

But, yes, your reed sensor rod should be touching the reed. I think it's possible to set Breath so that it's always blowing a note, or never stops after you start one (again, see earlier in the thread), so you could maybe check it that way - start a note going, then take it out of your mouth and press with your fingers and thumb to see if it responds, then tweak the settings.

If my WX5 had that problem I would remove the reed then carefully bend the rod til it touched, but it's old and I don't fancy the hassle or expense of trying to get it serviced. For the Aerophone, I would definitely try asking Roland first - but I have little faith in support monkeys, these days. Most manufacturers need to up the peanut allocation, to attract better qualified ones.
 
#317 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Thanks for the reply.

After a few exchanges I got an email from a Roland tech and it had a picture of the mouthpiece and bite sensor tip placement. It is around 1/2 inch down from the tip of the reed.

It would appear that I solved the problem of the bite sensor tip not touching the reed when the unit is at rest. When I removed the mouthpiece, I noticed that the rubber boot around the bite sensor rod base seemed to be preventing the bite sensor rod from moving properly. I successfully moved the rubber boot a bit further down the rod base and now it seems to be moving more freely, including allowing the bite sensor tip to rest on the reed.

Now it is on to experimenting with the bite, breath and vibrator settings!

thanks.
 
#318 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Cool :) I'm glad you managed to get it sorted out without having to send it to them. I dread that kind of thing.

If you haven't seen them already, google or youtube search for Alistair Parnell Aerophone, to find his helpful hints on setting it up. What you said about the boot reminded me of his tip about making sure the mouthpiece is seated evenly when you put it back on, so it aligns the same way with the reed.

Mine's still in its box, safely out of the wake of the electrician who was supposed to be coming last week, didn't, and is now supposed to be coming today. Maybe I'll get to play it later on, or failing that, tomorrow.
 
#319 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Mine's still in its box, safely out of the wake of the electrician who was supposed to be coming last week, didn't, and is now supposed to be coming today. Maybe I'll get to play it later on, or failing that, tomorrow.
Batteries, Andy. Rechargeable batteries. Last for years. :mrgreen:
 
#320 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

The power source wasn't the issue, Martin, just the fact that I had to move a lot of stuff around so the mains sockets could be officially inspected to satisfy my landlords - from about 6-8 feet away, as it turned out. I was very impressed; I'd assumed actual physical contact with tools or meters would be necessary, but no. Clearly a skill that takes years to master.

That, and the potential for damage to my delicate plastic sax toy, from electricians charging about with huge tool boxes, looking purposeful.
 
#321 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I was very impressed; I'd assumed actual physical contact with tools or meters would be necessary, but no. Clearly a skill that takes years to master
I actually Laughed Out Loud (more precisely, snorted out loud - SOL) at what I assumed was your sardonic humor. As the victim of a variety of building inspections-some with attendant costly fees-I too have been impressed with the level of expertise required to look around my house or condo and conclude that everything is fine.
 
#323 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I'd like one in purple ... with flames.
 
#328 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I'd like one with a 5 pin DIN MIDI Out... If it came with that, I wouldn't give a **** what colour it was.

Black is nice though.
I am with you on that one but I don't use hardware modules so I don't really need the 5 pin connecter. It would have been nice to plug my Bluetooth Le dongle in as I do with my EWI and WX. The fact that they changed the color, issued a firmware update and now have a limited iOS editor lets me believe that Roland is supporting the product so I broke down and ordered the graphite one. I was a cynic after watching the initial marketing demos but after watching all the youtube media and following several forums i decided to take a chance. I still feel it is overpriced as I only heard a few internal sounds that will work for me so I mainly will uses it as a controller like I do with my EWI 5000 and WX5. None of the manufactures have gotten the wind controller right and that is why I will soon have 3 and I still will be hoping that someone will get it right in my lifetime.
 
#329 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I agree, 3dogie - it does seem overpriced, to me. I suppose it's a bit of a specialised market though, so they're likely to want a bigger profit margin than on something more widely used, like a keyboard synth or a sound module.

I've been through the same process of accumulating different wind controllers, and pretty much the same ones, only I bought the EWI4000s, before the EWI5000 was available, so I didn't bother with the 5000. I also own a couple of Casio DH-100s. They're actually quite playable, and I like the fact that they're relatively easy to hack - I've added some more keys to one of them. The fingering system is very basic though, as they come, and there's no pitch bend at all.

The WX5 is pretty good, but some of the choices for fingerings bother me. The Aerophone is better, but since the fingering system is so sparse, I quickly came across fingerings I'm used to that didn't work - and I consider myself a very basic sax player. The custom fingerings are useful; I just wish there were more of them. Maybe it would slow down the response too much if they added more? I'm guessing they are slower to process than the built in fingering system.

I've thought about how a proper sax fingering system would be done. The best way would be one VERY big table, which doubles in size for each key added. That's pushing the limits of the amount of ROM/FLASH a manufacturer could be expected to build in though, even now, plus someone would have to fill in the table, or enough of it to get started. The upside would be that new fingerings could be added, without slowing down the process of looking them up - just by filling in more entries.

At the other extreme, I've seen one home brew design where the fingering table is just a list. The processor looks to see which keys are pressed, then reads down the list to see if that combination is in there. The further down the list it has to go, the longer it takes.

I'm guessing the Aerophone custom fingerings are done that way, which may explain why they stopped at ten. The built in fingerings might be done as a smaller table, which means a less simple way of looking things up in the table than just allowing all possibilities, but would still be faster - or it might be done as a decision tree, looking at each key in turn to decide between two smaller decision trees.

The easiest and fastest way to do that is in code, with IF.. THEN... ELSE, but the fingering system is then hard coded and can't be changed without rewriting the software. I suspect that was done on the WX5 and EWI series though, because they were probably pushing the limits of the technology. In the EWI4000s manual, it mentions being able to edit fingerings with the editor software - but there never was any. I guess the manual was written before it was released, and they decided they couldn't make it work well enough if they allowed the fingering system to be in an editable form - e.g. a table or a data structure representing a tree.

The point of my ramblings is that, yes, we are not quite there yet. We may have to wait a while before someone actually does reproduce even the fingering system of a sax accurately.

One approach, which probably could have been done twenty years ago, is using physical modelling to simulate the whole sax, including keys and tone holes - then you don't need a table or anything else, to tell it what note to play; it would just do it.

I've been looking at electric piano simulations, lately. The sample based ones can be quite good, but they all suffer from too few samples - you'd really need to sample each key at each of the 127 velocity levels, to make that work really convincingly. Even doing a half decent job takes up a lot of hard drive space. The physically modelled ones may not sound quite as realistic, but they respond a lot more realistically, and they take up a tiny fraction of the space, so they'd be a better choice for a portable device.

I've tried some by AAS, as demos of Lounge Lizard EP 4 and Lounge Lizard Session, plus a couple of free ones called MrRay and MrTramp... I'll dig out the links if anyone wants them.

From what I've been able to gather, the SuperNatural sounds, like in the Aerophone, are not true physical modelling - they're based on samples but with some clever way to fill in the gaps between them. I'd be interested to know how the other sounds work.

The main thing for me is the fingering system though - and being able to control something else with it. I didn't expect it to actually be able to sound like a sax, so I'm not disappointed. I would like it to be able to behave more like a sax though.

To return to the pitch bend thing - I want to have to hold the correct pitch, with my lip. That way I can bend it or correct it myself - e.g. to play in Just Intonation on an electronic instrument that's set up for Equal Temperament. I don't want it to automatically centre the pitch, like the Aerophone does, and the EWI does more so, and I don't want a dead spot to "help" me keep the pitch, like on the WX5... mutter... mutter....
 
#333 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I've been looking at electric piano simulations, lately. The sample based ones can be quite good, but they all suffer from too few samples - you'd really need to sample each key at each of the 127 velocity levels, to make that work really convincingly. Even doing a half decent job takes up a lot of hard drive space. The physically modelled ones may not sound quite as realistic, but they respond a lot more realistically, and they take up a tiny fraction of the space, so they'd be a better choice for a portable device.

I've tried some by AAS, as demos of Lounge Lizard EP 4 and Lounge Lizard Session, plus a couple of free ones called MrRay and MrTramp... I'll dig out the links if anyone wants them.
FWIW, it's really a question of cash. You could buy an electric piano sound for $99, like the Lounge Lizard one, or pay close to $16,000 and get an entire orchestra with 3,137,432 samples :D. (Oh. Please check out the demos they have there. They do a spectacular job on "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis," by Ralph Vaughn Williams. That's one of my favorite pieces and, if I didn't know that it was from a computer, I couldn't tell that performance from a live one.)

Another thing is that you need to have a good sound system to drive those patches through. The above demo still doesn't sound half as good on my 15 year old headphones as it does on my Klipsch multimedia system.

However, VSTs are the present and future. You can throw a lot of memory and disk space into a computer, not to mention a fast processor. That's been getting cheaper and cheaper over the years.
 
#330 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I've had a Casio DH-100 which was good fun until it died. I have a WX and VL70M but it sits on the shelf because it's too elaborate to set up and perform along with a tenor sax and keyboard. I like the Aerophone for several reasons, not the least of which is the very sax-like fingering. I can play very fast right away without any thought because it feels very much like playing a sax. I also like that it's self-contained with onboard sounds and no external module, it's battery powered so no wall wart or other plug necessary, it has its own speaker so you can turn it on and play right away if you're practicing at home or playing in an acoustic situation, and breath, pitch, and other settings are very adjustable. I too didn't expect it to sound very sax-like so I wasn't disappointed. I was pleasantly surprised at how good the muted trumpet sounds, and I enjoy some of the other sounds just to play by myself. My business partner, also a musician, was thoroughly unimpressed when I played it for him. He described it as a wind-powered synthesizer (or something like that) and didn't see the point. Well, if you don't like synthesizers in the first place, then you won't like the Aerophone. But as the latest version of a wind controller, I think it offers ease of use and a lot of fun.

If you're looking for a good piano sound, I suggest looking at keyboards dedicated to that proposition. There are many out there. I love my Nord, especially for its organ and Wurlitzer sounds. Others on the keyboard forum are devoted to other brands. There are many good ones out there. I have a cheap Casio work station with built-in speakers that has an excellent stereo acoustic piano sound.
 
#331 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Yes, I was playing the electric piano sounds with a keyboard, Martin :)

Nothing as nice as a Nord though; just a Yamaha MIDI keyboard, with velocity, plugged into my PC via a USB MIDI adapter.

I've debated whether to buy a Yamaha Reface CP, which do seem good (I tried one in a shop, once), but they don't really do much, considering the price tag.

I guess I could have tried them with the Aerophone as a controller, but I wouldn't expect that to work well. Piano sounds are just triggered with an initial velocity, like plucking a string, so as a rule, those sort of sounds don't suit a wind controller.

I mentioned the electric piano sounds as an example of physical modelling. The VL70m was based on that, of course, but I've never tried one. I'd be interested in trying one, but they always go for a lot more than I feel like paying.

My main thought was that a more involved physical model could be done now (i.e. we have the processing power) that modelled the tone holes as well. That would automatically produce a full sax fingering system, without needing tables, trees or whatever to look up the fingering - and that's a bigger job to get right than you might think.

Yes, the Aerophone is a lot of fun. Wind powered synth seems a fair description, and I do enjoy synths. One of my favourite patches is just the Saw Lead one, with some tweaks to how the filter opens, done with the patch editor. That's very synthy, not saxy, but it responds very well to how hard you blow.

I'd been using Roland romplers (a JV-1010 then an XV-3080) with wind controller patches before, and they don't work quite that well. The problem is that they're based on a short recording of a real instrument, but playing at a particular dynamic. You can have four different samples like that and try to switch or blend between them, but you can never make it seem like a real instrument responding over the whole dynamic range.

The same applies to piano patches or similar - basing a patch on four different recordings of a piano does not give you a realistic dynamic range. It might sound okay to the listener, but to the guy playing, it feels dreadful - even to someone as bad at it as I am. The physical modelling pianos get around that, potentially giving you a seamless response over the full velocity range - though they might not sound as realistic as sample based ones.
 
#335 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I find the reverb VERY annoying and I end up turning off for every single sound. Is there any way to overwrite presets so that I could have all the presets without the reverb set at 5??
I don't think you can overwrite the presets, but you can load each preset you want to use into the editor and save them to user slots. Without looking, I assume you can set the reverb to 0 in the edited voices.
 
#336 · (Edited)
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Firmware V2.20 has been released, apparently:

[EDIT: The link I originally have no longer works! I've updated it]
https://www.roland.com/us/support/by_product/aerophone_ae-10/updates_drivers/

(scroll to the bottom for the download link)

I haven't tried it yet. They recommend going through your settings and writing them down by hand before installing it, which suggests restoring a backup after the factory reset (step 2) is not possible - probably because some of the settings have changed so the backup wouldn't be compatible.

What I'm not clear about is whether custom sounds made in the tablet based editor can still be backed up and re-imported, whether they are lost in the factory reset... and whether an update to that app will be needed to make it compatible with this firmware. If anyone finds that out, please let the rest of us know.

Shortish version of the changes:

There are some promising looking changes to how the bite sensor can be set up. It looks like I may get my wish of being able to play "out of tune" (departing from Equal Temperament) by tightening or loosening my bite... We will see.

Seven new sax sounds have been added to the end of the presets, after the pipe organs (56-62). It seems all of the original presets (1-55) remain as they were.

There is a new updated manual, a new tone list, and a document listing the changes - all linked to from that page.
 
#338 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Thanks, Andy A15. Something to do this weekend.
 
#341 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I just checked on Google Play - there is an update of the Android app. It just says "Includes new tones of AE-10 system program ver.2.20":

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.roland.ae10editor

Hopefully, that means our existing user tones can be backed up with it before the update... and even more hopefully, restored again afterwards if it wipes them. I don't pretend to understand how to do it, but I'll try to make that part of my process.
 
#342 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

I have spent some hours with the new update and it doesn't erase your presets. There should be "sound police" to arrest any engineer that thinks these new sounds are sax sounds. You can however take out all the effects and reverb and layer it with other VSTs and get a nice sound but please do not call it a sax. It took some doing but I did get a better vibrato going to Kontakt Sample Modeling Sax and Trumpet using the PIT 2 setting and cranking up the values in pitch up and down to extreme levels compared to my previous values. Yes you can call the Sample Modeling sounds sax sounds. For me these new changes are great. My settings lose all lip pitch bend but the intonation is much improved. I can always use the thumb switch for pitch bending.
 
#343 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

Good to know. Thanks, 3dogie.

In that case, I won't struggle with the Android app, when I update it.

I barely understand how to use it, and I don't see that as my fault - it's just not all that well thought out. I don't expect they've made many changes to the user interface. Adjusting parameters with the pop up sliders is really awkward, being pestered about losing the end one each time I try to move one (insert) is annoying, and it's far too easy to lose one by overwriting it (without any warning / pestering). Connectivity on my Google Nexus 7 2012 is really hit and miss, too.

I guess they haven't actually added any more of the underlying voices that are used to put together a preset, or a user tone - probably just a few more presets built from what's there already. That makes sense, because those won't take up much space.

The pitch sensor changes are what interests me most, anyway.

It's nice that they've added a fingering mode for one handed sax players. I'm still trying to picture how someone with only the use of his right hand would work the octave keys, but I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to move them somewhere else - add more switches and wire them up.

I looked at the recorder fingerings (2.1 firmware) but it seems to have been designed by someone who's never played a recorder. I added a few of the odd ones above 2nd octave A, as custom sax fingerings instead. Those were the ones that mattered most, to me, because I still struggle to remember them whenever I pick up a recorder, and I wanted to practice them on the Aerophone. It's a bit irritating that I have to use up some of my precious 10 custom fingerings (or fingering corrections, as I prefer to think of them) to do that.

I guess I moan about manufacturers choices quite a lot, but I can't help asking "What the hell were they thinking?". A recorder fingering system would be great, but make it like a $%%$ing recorder. It's not like there aren't enough buttons to do it.

Same goes for the trumpet fingering. My right hand is busy enough, when I play a trumpet. It doesn't need anything else to do. On the other hand :))), my left one gets quite bored and would appreciate a few extra buttons to press. What I'd like to see is a trumpet fingering system where my right hand does EXACTLY what it does when I play a trumpet, cornet, or other three valve brass, or at least has the option of doing that and nothing else. Unfortunately, they based it on the Steiner EVI system, as on the Akai EWI - which I also find confusing as hell.

Anyway, new pitch bend options. Sounds good. I'm trying out positivity for a change :)
 
#345 ·
Re: Aerophone AE-10 - New Roland Wind Instrument

If anyone else here is from the UK, and thinking of buying one, have a look at PMT's website. They've just reduced it to £609 inc delivery - quite a bit cheaper than I paid:

https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/roland-ae-10-aerophone-digital-wind-instrument
Excellent!!! Thanks for the link.

Looks like most people are choosing the graphite model - it's still £729.
https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/roland-ae-10g-aerophone-synthesizer-graphite-black-edition
 
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