Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument - Page 13

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  1. #241

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Fingering Peculiarity

    Because of the sparse matrix implementation of its fingering recognition algorithm, the Aerophone can do some strange things when you finger it wrong. (Just finger it right and you're OK.) So to illustrate this with an extreme example, finger a low 'Sax C' seven fingers down -- IMR IMRP. Blow a note. Then lift all your fingers except your right hand index finger, lifting your left hand first, and blow a note again. It plays the same note again with no change; not at all like a real sax. You can even run your thumb up and down the octave keys and still no change.

    I love the Aerophone and it beats hell out of every other wind controller i've ever played, but this is goofy. This doesn't interfere with my playing 99.99% of the time, but it does on occasion. (In particular if my left hand ring finger loosens slightly when i am moving among low Bb, B, C, and Db with my left pinky. This can be changed by adding those particular wrong fingerings to FINGERIN, or better yet fingering it right.)

    This is true in both SAX1 and SAX2 FINGMODE; i tested it only with V2.0.

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  3. #242

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Fingering Peculiarity

    Because of the sparse matrix implementation of its fingering recognition algorithm, the Aerophone can do some strange things when you finger it wrong. (Just finger it right and you're OK.) So to illustrate this with an extreme example, finger a low 'Sax C' seven fingers down -- IMR IMRP. Blow a note. Then lift all your fingers except your right hand index finger, lifting your left hand first, and blow a note again. It plays the same note again with no change; not at all like a real sax. You can even run your thumb up and down the octave keys and still no change.

    I love the Aerophone and it beats hell out of every other wind controller i've ever played, but this is goofy. This doesn't interfere with my playing 99.99% of the time, but it does on occasion. (In particular if my left hand ring finger loosens slightly when i am moving among low Bb, B, C, and Db with my left pinky. This can be changed by adding those particular wrong fingerings to FINGERIN, or better yet fingering it right.)

    On the other hand, there are uses for the fact that the Aerophone does not change the note until it recognizes a permitted new fingering.

    I tested this with both SAX1 and SAX2 FINGMODE; but i tested it only with V2.0.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    So, I received the Aerophone today. First thing I noticed was that it had a latency, where it sounded the note a few milliseconds behind my blowing. I was eventually able to resolve this issue by adjusting the Breath Sensitivity in the settings. Second thing I noticed, is it's bigger for the fingers to reach around than it needs to be, so it's not going to be comfortable to play for long shedding sessions. Maybe I'd get used to it, so by itself not necessarily a deal-breaker. Okay, here's a problem; it quacks! With certain right hand notes in runs and other sequences, it would quack out a 2nd octave B seemingly at random. As some of you know, the Aerophone is programmed with a slew of fingerings for "overtones," mostly altissimo notes but some strange alternate fingerings for some notes below the altissimo range. I know plenty of altissimo fingerings, but many of the programmed ones shown in their manual I've never seen nor used, so I'll be interested to try them on a real horn and see if they work in the real sax world. Anyway, the culprit in this case was a fingering of 123 / 1 x 3 that on the device will play second octave B. On my sax, all that sounds is a fuzzy F, and I couldn't make an overtone out of it. But, when I was playing normal runs up and down, if I had the RH middle finger released but the 3rd finger depressed, it would quack out the second octave B note. I turned off the "overtone" fingering options in the settings and it didn't happen anymore. According to the manual, one can go through and edit these overtone alternate fingerings, eliminating the ones you don't want, and entering the ones you will use.
    Finally, the unit has a low static-y white noise that you can hear through the speaker, and plainly hear through the headphones. Roland tech thought it might be an a/c ground lift issue, so I ran it on batteries-only, but the noise is still there. Their tech turned on their in-house unit, and discovered the same white noise issue, admitted they never noticed it previously, perhaps because it's low volume, but he suspects that it may be inherent in the device. I would want to be able to use this live and recording, if I chose, so this is getting returned. I don't like it enough to exchange for another, if I thought I get one without the white noise issue. I can shed most of what I need to on the flute, and it has more practical musical application for me anyway.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Hi all!

    It's possible some of this has been addressed in the 13 pages of this thread, but after receiving AE-10 and playing all day today, some questions:

    1) After playing for a few minutes, sometimes the unit will faintly play on its own. If I press keys down, it will sound those notes (even if mouth is nowhere near mouthpiece). This is SUPER annoying and I can't figure out what to do.

    2) With the sax sounds specifically, is there any way to turn OFF the key press sounds? It seems not!

    3) If I'm connecting to a mixer, do I need a DI, or will a TRS cable be fine?

    Thanks!!

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    I finally gave in to temptation and bought one, a couple of days ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by hornstar View Post
    So, I received the Aerophone today. First thing I noticed was that it had a latency, where it sounded the note a few milliseconds behind my blowing. I was eventually able to resolve this issue by adjusting the Breath Sensitivity in the settings.
    There's a setting called KeyDelay, added in a recent firmware update. I've set that to zero. I'm not really noticing more glitches, just less lag. I hadn't noticed a change related to breath settings, but I'll look into that more.

    When I tried it in the shop, it was still on firmware 1.0. I was aware of the lack of lip response, but I had the muted trumpet working really well. When I got home, I updated it to 2.10, and it was kind of disappointing. It seems to be all about the defaults though, and I'm slowly getting back to where it was before.


    Quote Originally Posted by hornstar View Post
    Second thing I noticed, is it's bigger for the fingers to reach around than it needs to be, so it's not going to be comfortable to play for long shedding sessions. Maybe I'd get used to it, so by itself not necessarily a deal-breaker.
    My hands are on the small side, but all I've noticed is that I tend to hit the side keys by accident, and they're sensitive enough to respond. I seem to be learning not to though. The table keys are a fairly comfortable reach and on most saxes they're a stretch, for me. The only one I have where they're really comfortable is one where I bent them into place myself - my Elkhart 300 series soprano, which I bought second hand, arrived so bent I didn't have much to lose. I wouldn't dare to it to one that already worked though.

    Quote Originally Posted by hornstar View Post
    Okay, here's a problem; it quacks! With certain right hand notes in runs and other sequences, it would quack out a 2nd octave B seemingly at random. As some of you know, the Aerophone is programmed with a slew of fingerings for "overtones," mostly altissimo notes but some strange alternate fingerings for some notes below the altissimo range. I know plenty of altissimo fingerings
    I used to know one, but I've forgotten it I turned that off. Much better. The octave keys actually work very well, compared to my EWI4000s or Yamaha WX5 - I like the two up, two down setting for most things (OCT2), or the simpler one for sax realism (OCT1). The palm keys are good too and very easy to use, compared to the real thing. I don't practise using those enough on my saxes, due to the painful shrieking that's often involved. Between those two things, I don't feel the need for altissimo, though I appreciate some people will want it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hornstar View Post
    Finally, the unit has a low static-y white noise that you can hear through the speaker, and plainly hear through the headphones. Roland tech thought it might be an a/c ground lift issue, so I ran it on batteries-only, but the noise is still there. Their tech turned on their in-house unit, and discovered the same white noise issue, admitted they never noticed it previously, perhaps because it's low volume, but he suspects that it may be inherent in the device. I would want to be able to use this live and recording, if I chose, so this is getting returned. I don't like it enough to exchange for another, if I thought I get one without the white noise issue. I can shed most of what I need to on the flute, and it has more practical musical application for me anyway.
    I haven't noticed that, but I'm used to playing with electric guitar gear (on headphones - only because it's an instrument the neighbours can't hear), so I'm probably desensitised to background noise level.


    Quote Originally Posted by eroxx View Post
    Hi all!

    It's possible some of this has been addressed in the 13 pages of this thread, but after receiving AE-10 and playing all day today, some questions:

    1) After playing for a few minutes, sometimes the unit will faintly play on its own. If I press keys down, it will sound those notes (even if mouth is nowhere near mouthpiece). This is SUPER annoying and I can't figure out what to do.
    The last couple of pages seem to cover most of the problems. Detective Tuesday talked about notes not sounding, and I think notes not stopping, and I've had both of those - notably, not until the firmware update. On 1.0, neither of those happened.

    It is just down to turning off Auto for the breath settings and finding ones that work, though. On Medium or lower, Breath Response feels limited - it tops out too easily, with nothing left for expressive loud bits. I'm trying H1, at the moment, which seems fine. Maybe I'll go higher when I get more used to it. You need to adjust BreatAdj to stop notes from not sounding, or playing on their own. I didn't get it right straight away. I think I settled on a value in the mid 50s, but it may be different for each one, or may be temperatute dependent.

    The thing I've struggled with most is getting the bite set up comfortably. Like Martin, I use a loose embouchure. On a real sax, it's just a question of pushing the mouthpiece far enough onto the cork to allow it. You can still bend notes down using your throat, and bend them up by biting. The Aerophone doesn't seem to quite have that concept.

    There's one setting that covers the amount of squeeze needed to start a note playing (BiteSens), but if it's set low, they get closed off as you bite harder. That also seems to set the point for neutral pitch too, so if I set it how I really want it, I'm playing flat, unless I turn off the pitch bend effect.

    I've noticed the reed is very flexible, but of course the sensor only senses one spot, so the response you get depends how far your lower lip is from the end of the sensor - if you have the end of the reed resting on your lip, it bends quite a bit but only moves the sensor a little. I'm used to having to pull out like that for low notes, and practically swallow the mouthpiece for high notes, on a soprano, so it takes a bit of adjustment. The WX5 reed is a lot stiffer, so that isn't as noticeable.

    I had a chat with the lad in the shop about replacement reeds; mostly how their weren't any (you have to buy the whole mouthpiece to get one), and how at some point the Aerophone will inevitably go out of production, so we'll have to make our own. I hadn't thought about it, but we might also want to be able to choose them in different strengths. I like soft reeds on a real sax, but on a simulated one, a stiffer one would seem to work better because mouthpiece placement against the lip will be less critical, and maybe more intuitive.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by eroxx View Post
    1) After playing for a few minutes, sometimes the unit will faintly play on its own. If I press keys down, it will sound those notes (even if mouth is nowhere near mouthpiece). This is SUPER annoying and I can't figure out what to do.
    You need to set the breath sensitivity. Scroll down a few posts and find the link to the Alistair Parnell video about this.

    Edit: here's the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBH7xW04E2w&t=595s

    Quote Originally Posted by eroxx View Post
    2) With the sax sounds specifically, is there any way to turn OFF the key press sounds? It seems not!
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. When I play in headphones, I don't hear the sound of keys being pressed. If you hear it, it's not in the sound you'e playing, it's in the mechanical noise of the keys moving up and down (I think). I don't hear that very much at all, but I don't think there's a way to dampen that sound. If I'm wrong about this, I'll acknowledge it. I have to get the Aerophone out tomorrow and listen to the sax sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by eroxx View Post
    3) If I'm connecting to a mixer, do I need a DI, or will a TRS cable be fine?
    A TRS cable is fine. I have a stereo cable that splits to 2 mono cables which I connect to my 2 QSC powered speakers. That's all I need to blast the guitar players out of the water–Aerophone, stereo splitter cable, and powered speakers.
    The Martin "Official Music Man" tenor, Barone black tenor, The Martin baritone, Richards Martin Indiana alto, Martin Handcraft alto, cheap Chinese soprano, Roland Aerophone AE10, Metalite mouthpieces, Plasticover reeds, Nord Electro 5D, bunch of other instruments

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMusicMan View Post
    You need to set the breath sensitivity. Scroll down a few posts and find the link to the Alistair Parnell video about this.

    Edit: here's the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBH7xW04E2w&t=595s
    Yep. Specifically, BreatAdj, which is covered in the original PDF manual. It's the same as "Wind Zero" on a WX5, but set from a menu, instead of with a screwdriver.

    You'll also want to change Breath (covered in the addendum document for the 2.0 update) to find a more natural feeling response to how hard you blow. H1 or higher, probably.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by altobeginner View Post
    This "Killer Joe" demo certainly got my attention! I want one! https://youtu.be/sdowsGXO9mM
    I saw that a while ago, and I noticed in the comments he said "Yes most instruments sounds realistic except the flute and saxes. Lucky I'm a sax and flute player. ". I wondered if violin and cello players would say everything sounds realistic except the strings

    I kind of play trumpet, and playing it on the Aerophone is not the same as the real thing, obviously, but it's still fun. The brass sounds are among the best on my Roland XV-3080 too, and my Dave Smith Mofo can actually make some quite expressive brassy synth sounds. For some reason, woodwind is harder to emulate.

    I can't get on with the alto sax or soprano sound. I quite like the tenor, possibly because I've barely played one. I'm enjoying the flute sounds too - something I attempt but am not all that good at. Maybe if I was, I'd see the flaws and limitations more.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Sorry for not being more clear - I don't mean the physical sounds of the keys.

    Out of my speakers I hear key sounds as if they're part of the actual sound. Go from low c to c# or d ...?

    EDIT: Slur a trill from Low D to D# back and forth. It's quite noticeable. Not the sound of the keys, but the sound coming out of the speaker (or out of a PA).


    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMusicMan View Post
    You need to set the breath sensitivity. Scroll down a few posts and find the link to the Alistair Parnell video about this.

    Edit: here's the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBH7xW04E2w&t=595s

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. When I play in headphones, I don't hear the sound of keys being pressed. If you hear it, it's not in the sound you'e playing, it's in the mechanical noise of the keys moving up and down (I think). I don't hear that very much at all, but I don't think there's a way to dampen that sound. If I'm wrong about this, I'll acknowledge it. I have to get the Aerophone out tomorrow and listen to the sax sound.

    A TRS cable is fine. I have a stereo cable that splits to 2 mono cables which I connect to my 2 QSC powered speakers. That's all I need to blast the guitar players out of the water–Aerophone, stereo splitter cable, and powered speakers.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by eroxx View Post
    Sorry for not being more clear - I don't mean the physical sounds of the keys.

    Out of my speakers I hear key sounds as if they're part of the actual sound. Go from low c to c# or d ...?

    EDIT: Slur a trill from Low D to D# back and forth. It's quite noticeable. Not the sound of the keys, but the sound coming out of the speaker (or out of a PA).
    I listened with headphones this morning. At loudest volume/full breath pressure I hear a slightly breathy sound when I trill low D to D#. It sounds sort of like a little bit of air escaping as I open and close a key. I guess this is what you're hearing too. I hear it in the sax sounds and the flute but not in other sounds. It seems built into the sound so I don't think there would be a way to turn it off without altering the sound itself. I'm curious if others hear this and what you think about it.
    The Martin "Official Music Man" tenor, Barone black tenor, The Martin baritone, Richards Martin Indiana alto, Martin Handcraft alto, cheap Chinese soprano, Roland Aerophone AE10, Metalite mouthpieces, Plasticover reeds, Nord Electro 5D, bunch of other instruments

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    When I connect to my mixer/speakers, it's not as pronounced, but it is odd - and also odd that only happens when playing legato.

    In another realm, I am trying to find out how the various CC's control various sounds. One of Alistair's videos (the one with the iOS app that he made recently) says "you can find them on the website", but I've been through all documentation and don't see this ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMusicMan View Post
    I listened with headphones this morning. At loudest volume/full breath pressure I hear a slightly breathy sound when I trill low D to D#. It sounds sort of like a little bit of air escaping as I open and close a key. I guess this is what you're hearing too. I hear it in the sax sounds and the flute but not in other sounds. It seems built into the sound so I don't think there would be a way to turn it off without altering the sound itself. I'm curious if others hear this and what you think about it.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by eroxx View Post
    In another realm, I am trying to find out how the various CC's control various sounds. One of Alistair's videos (the one with the iOS app that he made recently) says "you can find them on the website", but I've been through all documentation and don't see this ... ?
    Some of the CC's are in the Tonelist doc that's on the web site. I can't remember how I found the CC for sustain. I think I just googled CC list and got them all.
    The Martin "Official Music Man" tenor, Barone black tenor, The Martin baritone, Richards Martin Indiana alto, Martin Handcraft alto, cheap Chinese soprano, Roland Aerophone AE10, Metalite mouthpieces, Plasticover reeds, Nord Electro 5D, bunch of other instruments

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by eroxx View Post
    I am trying to find out how the various CC's control various sounds. One of Alistair's videos (the one with the iOS app that he made recently) says "you can find them on the website", but I've been through all documentation and don't see this ... ?
    See:
    https://www.roland.com/global/suppor...wners_manuals/

    You need the manual, which covers software version 1.0, and the three documents at the end of the list, which includes Aerophone AE-10 Tone List

    You can set the breath sensor, the bite sensor and the left and right thumb switches to send almost any CC, but most of them are only of use with an external synth or soft synth. The tone list shows which CCs the internal synth responds to, for each voice, when you assign one to a thumb switch. It might not be a complete list, I guess.

    For example, voice 2, Tenor Sax, can respond to CC1 (Mod wheel - usually an imitation vibrato), CC16 (Noise Level - a breathy noise), CC18 (a not very convincing growl), CC19 (bend mode - still not sure exactly what that does), CC65 (portamento), CC80-82 (staccato, fall and subtone).

    For CC80-81, the trick seems to be to move the switch before starting the first note, then play legato for the rest of the effect. I'd missed CC82 (subtone) because most voices don't have that option. I'll try that shortly.

    You can set the switches for other CCs, but they won't have any effect on internal sounds... maybe with some undocumented exceptions.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by eroxx View Post
    Out of my speakers I hear key sounds as if they're part of the actual sound. Go from low c to c# or d ...?

    EDIT: Slur a trill from Low D to D# back and forth. It's quite noticeable. Not the sound of the keys, but the sound coming out of the speaker (or out of a PA).
    Which voice is that? I do hear a difference if I tongue each note vs playing them legato. I'm not sure if it's a key noise or not. It's hard to separate out the sound of the actual key noise. I guess I'd have to record it to hear the difference properly.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    I've made an Excell spreadsheet version of the Tone List:

    Aerophone AE-10 Tone List (spreadsheet).zip {EDIT: Corrected mistakes on the violin and cello CC details}

    The advantage is I was able to make it keep the tone name and special CC numbers in view at the same time - I've duplicated the columns for tone number and name, on the right, and added a split for the headings, so those stay still when you scroll down.

    You'll need either Microslop Excel 2000 or later (part of Office), or something that can read the format - a lot of things probably can, e.g. Star Office, if that's still going. There's an official free viewer you can get for Windows too.

    EDIT:

    Here's a reference I've used before, for the list of all MIDI CC values:

    http://nickfever.com/music/midi-cc-list

    - one of many sources, of course. The undefined ones have no standard meaning, but may do something on a particular synth or soft synth - you'd have to read the manual for it.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 � New Roland Wind Instrument

    The CC for sustain is kinda cool. I assign it to the thumb left for the Synth Strings sound so I can play a string section unison lead or backing, then play a final chord by using the sustain. It's also good on the Pipe Organ 2 sound. In one of those videos, Alistair Parnell plays a bit of the Toccata and Fugue and ends with that big swelling organ chord. Played through speakers, it's a huge sound.
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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 � New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMusicMan View Post
    The CC for sustain is kinda cool. I assign it to the thumb left for the Synth Strings sound so I can play a string section unison lead or backing, then play a final chord by using the sustain. It's also good on the Pipe Organ 2 sound.
    I'll have a go at that later. Did you use CC64 (Sustain) or CC66 (Sostenuto)?

    It makes me wonder if there are others that aren't mentioned in the tone list. It seems likely they wouldn't all apply to all sounds, since the others don't, except Portamento.

    The documentation seems to lag behind the software updates... It would be good to have a new manual with it all in, instead of reading multiple addenda. No wonder people get confused about the settings.

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 � New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy A1S View Post
    I'll have a go at that later. Did you use CC64 (Sustain) or CC66 (Sostenuto)?

    It makes me wonder if there are others that aren't mentioned in the tone list. It seems likely they wouldn't all apply to all sounds, since the others don't, except Portamento.
    Without looking to confirm, I'm pretty sure I must have used CC64 (sustain) because that's what it's called – sustain – and I wanted to reproduce what I heard in the Alistair vid. But this also makes me think about what else is in a full CC list and whether I can apply some of them to some of the sounds. I just looked at a list http://nickfever.com/music/midi-cc-list and I don't see anything else, except I do want to try the sostenuto CC because of this description:

    MIDI CC 66 Sostenuto On/Off Switch On/Off switch – Like the Sustain controller (CC 64), However it only holds notes that were “On” when the pedal was pressed. People use it to “hold” chords” and play melodies over the held chord.

    Edit: I just thought of playing a chord using sustain assigned to thumb left, then holding the chord using sostenuto assigned to thumb right, then playing a melody over the held chord. Ooh ooh ooh I have to try it later today. The grandkids are coming over now. Maybe I can show them how my Aerophone works.
    The Martin "Official Music Man" tenor, Barone black tenor, The Martin baritone, Richards Martin Indiana alto, Martin Handcraft alto, cheap Chinese soprano, Roland Aerophone AE10, Metalite mouthpieces, Plasticover reeds, Nord Electro 5D, bunch of other instruments

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy A1S View Post
    Which voice is that? I do hear a difference if I tongue each note vs playing them legato. I'm not sure if it's a key noise or not. It's hard to separate out the sound of the actual key noise. I guess I'd have to record it to hear the difference properly.

    First sound - alto sax

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    Default Re: Aerophone AE-10 – New Roland Wind Instrument

    Thanks for all the info on the CC messages - I didn't think to look at that tone list document. Fantastic!

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