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Soprano chamber

4K views 10 replies 7 participants last post by  rzzzzz 
#1 ·
Soprano mpc chamber

I've found this statement in Theo Wanne's web site:

"With soprano mouthpieces extra-small chambers are the standard of the industry for both a dark and bright sound. This is true for two reasons:

The opening of the neck on a soprano saxophone is so small relative to the bore of the mouthpiece that an extra-small chamber is simply narrowing the airstream to smoothly enter the neck of the soprano saxophone.

The sound inside the soprano mouthpiece is created more in the 'throat' of the mouthpiece than the chamber. The 'throat' of the soprano mouthpiece acts like the chamber would in alto, tenor, and baritone mouthpieces."


http://theowanne.com/knowledge/chamber-sizes

So do I have to think that all threads about "large chamber soprano mouthpieces" (Slant, Aizen, etc.) doesn't make sense??? I'm confused!
 
#2 ·
Its not about 'air flow'. There is no high-speed air in a saxophone in the technical sense. So, there is no need to make anything 'aerodynamic'. I also don't see what he means by 'chamber' and 'throat'. The 'throat' is the area behind the 'window' opening and above the table that usually has a constriction of one shape or another, but also is sometimes simply the shank bore diameter. The 'chamber' is the area of the window that has the facing, rails and baffle of whatever design. Finally, many sopranos today have a 'bushing' inside the mouthpipe that reduces the inside diameter even more for about a half inch or so. For the 'narrowing of the airstream' idea to have any validity at all, it would be required for the mouthpiece to have only a round throat and the design must be such that there is no space between the back of the throat and the neck. Otherwise, air would lose it's 'narrowing' and simply become turbulent between the throat and the neck. You may have also realized that this would eliminate the ability to tune the sax.
 
#4 ·
None that I know of, ronnieross. The one soprano piece that I own with a large chamber (both marked as such AND visually larger than the same maker's regular-chamber pieces) doesn't play nearly as well as my other favored mouthpieces, all with regular looking chambers.

There is a popular claim occasionally made by some vintage purists that one needs a large-chamber piece for vintage sopranos, but I view that claim as pure myth. The reason being that I've owned most of the popular sopranos out there dating from the 1920's to current models and they play just fine with a variety of regular-chambered mouthpieces. DAVE
 
#5 ·
I've been studying large chamber soprano pieces for quite some time. Why?

Well, because most of them seem problematic to me as a player. It's taken almost 9 years to come to some conclusions about what benefit can be had from a chamber larger than most.

Theo is right that almost all soprano pieces are NOT large chambered, in his sense (see his site for his definition of large chamber).
After all, there is a reason why all major mouthpiece makers abandoned large chamber soprano mouthpieces quite a while ago.

But, more importantly for players, "large chamber" doesn't really mean anything specific on soprano. It's a generalization and a rather useless one at that.

I own or have owned every large chamber (LC) soprano mouthpiece ever made, I think, both vintage and modern. I've investigated them as a player and, because I do mouthpiece work, I could optimize their performance. So, I've seen them all at their best.

So I know what they, each particular design, give and I know what they demand of the player and I know the upsides and I know, first hand, the downsides. So. What to make of it all?

First: a Martin LC is not a Link LC is not a Conn LC is not a Buescher LC is not a Caravan LC is not a Wanne LC is not an Alma LC is not an Aizen LC is not a Drake LC is not a King LC is not a ......... (I've got at least 20 more I can name, plus the unmarked ones). The difference are real and significant for players.

The defining point of view is....wait for it.... SOUND. Once we know what sound we're after, then we can begin to apply some ideas to which design moves us in that direction and which don't.

Where I would disagree with the statement attributed to Theo's website about the importance of the "throat" in terms of sound is here: throat/schmoat. It's a term that apllies to a part of the chamber. That's it. It's ALL about chamber. ALL about chamber.

Baffle/schmaffle, throat/schmoat. These are both aspects of the ENTIRE chamber. The terms are useful in indicating which part of the chamber we are talking about and , yes, the shape of the chamber is EVERYTHING in terms of sound. Throat is the back of the chamber- that's it.. It plays its part but only in conjunction with the entire chamber shape. period. It's noyt the "size of the throat" or even "the shape of the throat" that determines sound.

The short of it is this: a narrowing of the column affects the way a sound wave propagates. A narrow chambered piece ( Selmer metal,Selmer Soloist, King LC, all different) affects the wave one way. If the column then narrows even more, wave affected. But, that said, a LC piece also narrows (the chamber is wider than the completely open "throat" after all) so.... wave affected. But affected differently...VERY differently.

Stick any of those pieces on 10 different sopranos and, some horn bores will be wider, some bigger. Some will broaden at one ratio, some at another, etc, etc. The minute nature of some of the differences MATTER. It's real. Play them side by side. You'll feel it and maybe hear it too.

So, my advice is to NOT THINK but FEEL and HEAR. Then YOU will know what is and what is not: for you and your horn.

NB: Larger chambers, most often, will play darker if designed and set up correctly.
Yes, you can get a "dark" sound on a medium chamber piece. It means playing firmer reeds or NOT blowing too hard.
Yes, medium chamber sizes offer the most versatility in terms of sound and response on soprano. Tnhey can be set up to go in any direction.

But the horn plays a big part too. There are horns that tend to the brighter side and horns that tend to the darker side. It's in their particular resonance and what partials are most prominent in that resonance.

Confused? Sorry. :faceinpalm:
 
#6 ·
No confusion there Joe! Thanks for the info: very interesting indeed.
As you know, I've played Vandoren/Selmer type pieces most of my life, but I have recently been experimenting with some different pieces such as Navarro's Maestra soprano and one of Pillinger's larger chambered pieces.
My take is that for classical music - or indeed for anything that requires sustained, controlled, in-tune playing in the extreme upper register - only a small chambered (Vandoren/Selmer type) piece works for me. If I want a broader sound a 'large chambered' piece is great so long as it has some bite (I don't like very dark LC pieces). But so far, I do have to accept a loss of intonation-security with a 'large chamber' piece.
 
#7 ·
My take is that for classical music - or indeed for anything that requires sustained, controlled, in-tune playing in the extreme upper register - only a small chambered (Vandoren/Selmer type) piece works for me. If I want a broader sound a 'large chambered' piece is great so long as it has some bite (I don't like very dark LC pieces). But so far, I do have to accept a loss of intonation-security with a 'large chamber' piece.
Dave, your experience mirrors the experience of many players. Recently I've done a lot of work for "Rascher" style players, and...they are different. While I can try to emulate the way they play, it is a feeble attempt at best. So, I've been very interested to observe and learn from them about how different chamber styles behave in "their world".

It seems that they almost "require" a large chamber to acheive the very precise tone they are after. And, that large chamber, provides them the stability of intonation they require. Whereas most of us non-Rascherites have come up playing small and medium chamber pieces, they did not. It's been LC from the beginning, it seems. So they are not put off by the things that many LC pieces do.

That said, they are also VERY particular about the smallest aspect of tone and response, note by note, through the range of the horn and beyond. For instance, checking intonation variables between E2 and E4, and every other pairing as well.
It is because of that work that I've been able to "tune" mouthpieces. It was rather amazing to do it the first time for one of them in my shop.

It took a great leap of faith on his part and on mine as well. But the results were immediate and apparent, a real break-through for me.

Rascher-style players would have intonation issues with small chambers, as well as real issues with the resulting tone.

We are all different. :salute:
 
#8 ·
To me large chamber on soprano just means no squeeze throat. But what the heck do I know I just don't want to sound winy. I tried a boatload of pieces when I started playing soprano again after years but ended up with the Drake large chamber. I seem to get the best sound with that thing. It's really quite full in the lower register. Intonation isn't an issue for me because I have a Yani 902s. Once it finally warms up its pretty darn easy to play in tune with any mouthpiece.
 
#11 ·
confused! always. but motivated to find "that sound", which for me was dark, and minimal "oboe" on the low end. i checked out what Theo said about large chamber pieces on his site, which was not at all negative. on the contrary, he expressed great affection for those vintage pieces, with a special shout out for the Buescher. so, i tracked one down and sent it to Joe to apply his special magic to it. when i got it back from him it did not seem as immediately effortless as other mouthpieces i'm used to, but required only a small amount of adjustment, with maybe a little more focus on maintaining a steady stream from the diaphragm. 2nd nature now, and the sound is exactly what i was looking for. i don't understand it, but when it works for you, just go with it. mark me down as a LC fan.
 
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