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Help on buying a vintage saxophone

21K views 141 replies 34 participants last post by  2saxy4jazz 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,
My apologies if any of this post is done wrong, as this is my first post.
I apologize beforehand for the terrifyingly long post.

So, as the title says, i'm looking to upgrade from my YAS-23 alto saxophone to a vintage sax.
A bit of backstory: I'm going into grade 10 in high school, and i've been playing this Yamaha since I started playing 4 years ago in grade 6. The instrument has served me phenomenally.
Last year, I was lead alto in Jr. Jazz and Jr. Concert band, got onto the jazz festival "Jr. rep band" and got my second straight jazz award (most skilled overall in grades 8 and 9.)

This is going to be my 5th year playing.

I started private lessons this year, and I believe that I have gotten to skill level where a saxophone upgrade makes sense. I have upgraded my mouthpiece and ligature a while ago.

I have a job working tech over the summer, and my birthday is coming up mid-September, so I figured I'll try out some saxophones and go from there.

A little while ago, I stopped my my local music store and tried out a few altos there, namely the YAS-62III (~$3000CAD), and the P-Mauriat Le Bravo(~$2000CAD.) I absolutely loved the depth and richness of the tone with the Yamaha, and the keywork was familiar to me, so that helped as well. The P-Mauriat I tried I didn't like as much as I thought I would, but maybe that's just a matter of getting used to the horn?

However, I was surprised that I didn't feel the difference that I thought I would, the saxes being more than double the price of my YAS-23. Yes, the keywork was smoother, and the tone richer, but I personally couldn't really justify paying that much money (for a student)
for what seems like a pretty minimal upgrade (i'm obviously probably wrong in many people's eyes, but this is just my experience trying the horns.)

Unfortunately, I could only try these, as the other horns they had are all student/intermediate-level, like the one i'm thinking of upgrading from right now (YAS-26, YAS-475, some Alpine off brand.)

So then I started looking on my local (Metro Vancouver) craigslist. More than a month has since passed, and the only horns that i've seen so far that aren't student models, are a few $3000+ Selmers, and a King Zephyr for $1350. To be honest, I don't really want to spend over $700ish (and even that's pushing it) on a saxophone.

Then, however, I found out about vintage saxophones. And so, my last week has been hours a day researching vintage horns and looking them up on eBay.
Since with vintage saxes, you can get a pro-level horn for much less than a modern one, I was thrilled. I've also been hearing wonderful things about their tone, albeit while compromising on modern ergonomics.

I thought I found my sax-to-be a couple days ago, when I found a Martin 1927 Handcraft in "excellent condition" on eBay. It was an auction, that was currently sitting at ~$420CAD with 1 bid, including import fees, and shipping. I was thrilled!

I've read great things about vintage Martin horns. Excellent value, etc. My favourite words to hear!

The auction was supposed to end this morning at 10am Pacific Time, so I got up at 8, to get ready.
When I was what the price of the horn had gotten to, my jaw dropped.
It was sitting at over $1000CAD. Oh well, there goes my dream horn, lol.

After crying myself to sleep, I woke up at 11-ish, to give a final goodbye to the saxophone.
I opened up the the eBay page, and almost chucked my laptop across the room.
It said that the horn sold at it's original starting price of ~$420. It seems that someone either accidentally bid that price, then retracted it, or played a practical joke on us all.

Anyways, so now my question is, what do you guys think I should do? I'm still looking around on eBay, and I'm seeing a few Buescher true tone horns, ranging anywhere from $150-$600.
I saw this one where it says condition is as-is, auction is at ~$150CAD including import fees, shipping, etc. Based on pictures, it has a nice satin silver finish, with minimal (if any) dents and dings.
I don't know, it could be a cool project to take it apart, clean it, get new pads, and then take it to a tech to adjust it. From what i've read, buescher TT's aren't bad horns either.

Thanks so much for everyone's help.
 
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#2 ·
A TT alto for $150 in as-is condition is NOT going to play any better than your YAS-23. You've got a good horn that would likely benefit from some technical TLC. Get it to the shop for at least an evaluation and estimate of repairs.

And while you're at the shop, ask your tech whether they'd be open to the idea of what you propose. I'm guessing that it would be cheaper for you to strip the horn and let the tech repad it, rather than your tech having to redo all the work that you put into it. It's easier to do it right the first time (seating and leveling the pads, etc.). Your tech might just not want to work on it - and then where would you be?
 
#14 ·
We obviously live in far different worlds if it cost only $200 for a tech to replace your pads and make adjustment and a polish.
I doubt I could buy the pads for that sort of money when you add in the shipping.
But I guess that explains why an overhaul cost us $1000 plus when you guys only have to shell out a couple of hundred.
 
#4 ·
700 CAD is about $539 USD-which is going to be pretty hard to get a good horn that doesn't need some work at that price.
You should probably look into budgeting money for repairs anyways, regardless of if you keep your YAS-23 or get another horn.
And TT alto for $150 for me was basically in unplayable shape, most at that price point probably are.
Try getting your YAS-23 overhauled first as Dr. G said, it may surprise you how good it is once it's been overhauled. (Even if they're not my favorite, they're still very good horns for the money.)
...and you posted while I was typing.
While I'm about 99.999% sure it won't be in playable shape at that price-
With a TT, you're going to have it be better in some points (ie tone) but worse in others, (ie ergonomics), so it's a trade-off of what you want in your horn.
 
#6 ·
Thanks everyone for the advice.
Just one more quick and hopefully last question:
I'm not sure exactly how much I have to spend on a saxophone. The $700CAD figure was just an estimate on how much I have to spend, but that number might get larger in the upcoming months.
I understand that I really can't get much with the budget that I currently have, so i'll probably wait until I either have enough money, or see an exceptional eBay or craigslist deal.
Which pro saxophone would you guys recommend without hopefully going into the couple thousand dollar range?

I'm open to trying vintage, modern, in between, stencils, etc. I just can't get the amazing tone I had with the YAS-62 out of my head, albeit it was a $3000 horn. Like I mentioned beforehand, I'm ok with compromising on keywork, and slower action, if it means i'll get a nice "vintage style" tone.
If anyone has any saxophones for sale that fit my budget, please let me know and I'll contact you about it asap.
Thanks so much once again.
 
#37 ·
I understand that I really can't get much with the budget that I currently have, so i'll probably wait until I either have enough money, or see an exceptional eBay or craigslist deal.
Which pro saxophone would you guys recommend without hopefully going into the couple thousand dollar range?

I'm open to trying vintage, modern, in between, stencils, etc. I just can't get the amazing tone I had with the YAS-62 out of my head, albeit it was a $3000 horn. Like I mentioned beforehand, I'm ok with
I take back what i said above about paying money to get the YAS23 in good nick

This horn right here is all you need:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...en-Cheng-alto-sax-A-704-cupronickel-saxophone

Is an incredible bargain.

I can't believe it hasn't been snapped up. Yes, I can because these are a bit of a secret weapon.

But it's as good as any horn three or four times the price.
 
#8 ·
FWIW, I have both a TT and a YAS-23 and while the tone on the TT is beautiful, the gold plating is in good shape, and it was purchased from the local tech so was in good playing condition, it was a more than $700US and that's despite not having snap ins or norton springs so it isn't a 'collectable'. The YAS-23 cost me $500 with the lacquer in good condition and no dents, another $250 for some pad replacement and adjustment, and while the tone may not be quite as nice, the ergonomics are quite a bit better. I'd say get your YAS-23 tuned up and save your money until you can buy a classic horn in good condition if that's still what you want.
 
#9 ·
Actually...$550 CAN buy you a GOOD vintage Alto in playing shape. The question becomes...you are using the terms 'professional', 'intermediate', student', etc.

By (common) definition, some Professional Vintage Alto Saxophones are:

Conn 6M or Chu Berry
Martin Committees
Buescher 140 Aristocrats or 400's from the right era
King Zephyrs or Super 20's
Holton 23X or Revelation series
Grassis of later era's (80's-'00's)
Vito Beaugnier Dukes
Buffet Dynaction or SuperDynactions
J. Keilwerth Coufs or New Kings
SML's
Dolnets
Couesnons
Kohlert '5X or Regent models
Some B & S's

etc...

THESE cannot be HAD - in good playing shape - for $550.

However....many VERY GOOD vintage Altos CAN be.

Martin Indiana
Conn 14M Elkhart or PanAms
King Clevelands of a certain era
Holton Collegiates
Vito, Kenosha Model 37's or Specials
Pierret-made Olds Parisians
Santoni-made Evettes
Maybe luck out on a JK or Beaugnier stencil of some sort...

Just to name a few. Some folks here might say 'but those aren't better than a 23". Mwwelllll...depends on your Yardstick- I would strongly differ, myself.

But leaving that digression aside, they WOULD be very good, quality players with decent action, good intonation, and great tone...which would introduce some nice variety into your horn stable. (That's actually stating it very Mildly. IMHO, these second-line vintage models um... :|...blow away 95% of contemporary horns, sonically.... That's what draws folks to Vintage, after all.)

So...THAT'S what your $500ish gets you. If you want a Classic Vintage 'Pro' Player, up your budget to at least $800.

(With due respect...if one has been bitten by the Vintage Bug...I don't see how taking your budget and overhauling/seriously servicing a current Yama student model is really gonna get you what you want. I mean, unless your current horn is really a struggle to play).

I might recommend, if you can, try out some pre-1980 horns (peruse craigslist, ask other musicians, etc). Just get a feel for the keywork. The main difference will be (IMHO) in the pinky table...then the in-line stack toneholes...then perhaps something in the LH palmkeys.

For some, the feel is significant. For others....hey, feels like a sax and after all, all the touches are still located where they should be.

If you are cool with navigating the ones you try, then I think going vintage would spread your wings a bit and, as I said, get you a horn with some nice variability to any Contemporary model.
 
#11 ·
It is wrong IMO to think of "Vintage" as a brand. there is such a world of difference between (e.g.) a Truetone and an SBA. It is also misleading to think of instruments as Student and Professional.

If you are thinking of getting a Truetone without playing one first you may be either pleasantly surprised, or extremely disappointed. It is a world away from a YAS23, and if I had the choice (as a professional) I would in most cases prefer a YAS 23. I'm not saying I don't like Truetones, but for me they are quite restrictive in what I can do with it. I do use a Buescher sometimes but it's a 400 TH&C which I find a lot more versatile.


I also know many professionals who prefer and choose to use the YAS23/YTS23 over many other "so-called" professional instruments. And in fact when yamaha asked me to demonstrate their saxophones, I was given a YAS23 to show that it could sound every bit as good as the YAS62 (which I was using at the time)

I would go along with some of the above suggestions, spend the money on getting your Yamaha into great shape.

Also buying a horn from ebay is incredibly risky, you could pay 500 for a TT, only to find it needs another 500 spending on it and you still don't like it and you are stuck as you can't sell it without making a big loss.
 
#12 ·
I completely agree with Pete regarding vintage horns. I have a Beuscher Elkhart from the late 1920s (a student model, apparently) and it's a great little sax which I picked up really cheap. It has a sweet, rounded tone which I really enjoy on occasion. However, my every day alto is my 1953 SBA which can do just about everything from sweet and lyrical to roaring, screaming funk. Both vintage saxes but worlds apart in many ways.

The Yamaha is a fine instrument, and although I've never found one which made me want to buy it and love it, I regularly recommend them to students of all levels. They really are very good, even at the 'student' end of the range.

Have you considered saving a bit more and looking for an early Yani. The ones which were based upon the mkvi are very good, and can be a real bargain.
 
#15 ·
I don't think you buy a TT, to "better" a Yamaha. Its like buying a truck to better a convertible. The appeal and value in a vintage horn like a TT is acquired, charming, and somewhat revivalist. I have a TT and a Yamaha sax. I also have a pickup and a convertible for the same reasons. At anyrate, I bought a TT for cheap, and had a full quality rebuild done. I'd avoid buying one already "overhauled" unless you really know how to delineate a true overhaul from a quicky repad, or its a seller you can trust. Even moreso for sight-un-seen purchases thru Ebay.
 
#16 ·
My thoughts are to stick with a used modern horn. When you're 40 years old and want to dabble in vintage "old" equipment then you'll have the money (hopefully) to experiment but as a young person still stay with modern key-work and horns that general play more in tune. When I purchase off eBay I always plan to get horns overhauled as most are NOT original lacquer in playing condition.
 
#17 ·
Couple of things I'd like to point out: OP has been playing sax for 4 years. So, as he seems serious about it, am not sure I'd call him a beginner at this point.

Yamaha 23's are OK instruments...they are the Toyota Corollas of the sax world. Will do everything you need 'em to, are reliable, and their intonation is in-the-pocket. They also have a tone which is quite fogettable....and ..after having worked several up recently, I would go so far as to argue that their ergos/feel are not all that awesome, actually. They may have won the market as the default student horn, but FWIW, in a contemporary horn I prefer the ergos/action of a Jupiter or a JK ST90 or the asian Buffets, to that of the Yama 23's. A contemporary Jupe or some of the JK ST series horns are also as well-made as a Japanese 23....

So...like Toyota Corollas do most everything one needs a motor vehicle to do, reliably....they aren't exactly a blast to drivel....likewise, 23's as a Saxophone, can be pretty darn soul-less...

So its completely reasonable at some point for a player to say the 23 isn't lighting his fire much anymore.

If I were trying to save up for a new (to me) sax...I would most definitely NOT take that whole caboodle of cash and spend it on servicing my 23. Just IMHO. But by all means, keep the 23 still, and try to keep it up to speed as far as spot servicings. Just don't go spending $500+ on a servicing (if it needs that much work...you can get something better than it, in playing shape).

Already seems OP has decided to hold off on buying something now.

I agree...eFlay is a BAD place to buy a sax unless you have several hundred (i.e. more that $200) to spend on repairs once you get it. Craigslist a better idea: this way you can try the horns in person. Vintage horns have more variabliity between the brands...so a TT will feel very different from a Pan Am or an Indiana, for instance. They have their similarities, too. Best to take your time and try out as many pre-'80's horns as you can get your hands on...then make a decision from there. All I am saying is $500-600 (usd) can get you a VERY good vintage Alto. And for someone who has been playing for 4 years and is now in the middle of HS, it's perfectly reasonable to be thinking about spreading your wings a bit as far as horns. Hella lotta great saxophones have been made over time...

Best of luck.
 
#18 ·
I am much more of a beginner, than you, but I can tell you to be very careful buying a vintage sax on Ebay. I recently bought a '58 Martin Committee III Tenor, that was supposedly in great playing shape, for $1600. When it arrived, it was a mess. It had a post pushed into the body and a bent left side guard, it smelled horribly musty (like you can't even imagine) stinking up my whole house, and to my inexperienced fingers it was virtually unplayable. I was able to blow about six notes total on it. The left hand table keys were nearly impossible for me to reach, let alone depress. Within fifteen minutes of owning it, I knew it was going back......and I had REALLY wanted it, badly. That valuable lesson only cost me return shipping, but it cured my 'vintage fever,' possibly forever! I'll stick with my inexpensive Yamaha-built Vito. It plays great, by comparison! If I ever get to the point where I feel I need to upgrade, it will be a Pro model Yamaha, more than likely.
 
#19 ·
this seems to me to be an ebay problem, not a vintage saxophone problem in particular. you can get a vintage saxophone in great playing condition for sure, but ebay is probably not the place to do it. granted, in the OP's price range that might be tough. but if you buy from a reputable dealer and/or if you look locally and can try before buying, you can find one in decent working order that will play nicely (or if you budget for repair after your ebay purchase). just because you had one bad experience doesn't mean that all vintage saxophones are terrible and no one should play anything but a yamaha.
 
#21 ·
I live in Vancouver, and very honest, $700 ish can't get you a pro horn, especially the CAD is weak. You either save up or just play around with different mouthpiece. Buying from eBay is like going into a Casino, and it is not for someone who has limited budget.
As for the suggestion, it really depends on your budget. To get something noticeably better and in good playing condition right out of the box, I think you are looking at $1200 and up, unless you are lucky.
What mouthpiece did you "upgraded" to? I don't think there is any "good" mouthpiece selling in those big chain store like Tom Lee and Long and McQuade. What kind of sound are you looking for?
 
#24 ·
I live in Vancouver, and very honest, $700 ish can't get you a pro horn, especially the CAD is weak.

What mouthpiece did you "upgraded" to? I don't think there is any "good" mouthpiece selling in those big chain store like Tom Lee and Long and McQuade. What kind of sound are you looking for?
OP has stated that a second line or stencil is OK by him. So he has the budget for that, in good playing shape.

Yes, there is always the option of just upgrading the mouthpiece, a quick and inexpensive fix. 23's can be moved one direction or another, sonically - to a degree - by mouthpiece selection.

Prepare to spend about a grand to bring that vintage alive and some $500 every overhaul procedure.

If you are not going to do it all yourself, off course.
Just want to clarify- because, although I know you didn't mean it this way...it is not the fact that a sax is "Vintage" which translates into it needing significant work. This is a misunderstanding in the sax-buying world. If I had a nickel for everytime I have read "I am not considering vintage because they cost too much to service"...I would be living on a tropical island, playing Marimba on the beach, by now....

It is the fact that it may be an older horn which has not been put into playing condition. And MOST older horns on eFlay are nowhere near playable. So THAT is where the $$ comes in. But some are completely serviced, and will state so. In which case, if seller has return policy and a good rep, you are in a better place.

Also....if $500 gets you an Overhaul, then one would not ever need to spend $1000 on a servicing, no ? Since an Overhaul should encompass everything. Lastly, Overhauls need not be repeated every 3,4,5 years. After a proper Overhaul, a horn should only need regular spot-servicings for years to come, which should be far less expensive (unless instrument is abused or neglected after the Overhaul).
 
#30 ·
It depends on the listing. If the item is not as described, then EBay protects you and you will get a refund regardless of what the seller says. That's the EBay buyer protection policy. You will have to prove that it is not as described though, and there is a back and forth process to follow. buyer also have to pay return shipping.
 
#31 ·
Yes eBay will always screw the seller in favour of the buyer.
But a reasonable person would not use this as an excuse to abuse the system.
Many horns bought on eBay are returned because the buyer failed to read the description or study photos prior to bidding.
I have bought a few very nice horns on eBay at good prices.
I did my homework and asked many questions prior to bidding.
If my questions were not answered properly or were answered with "I don't know, I'm not a musician" I simply did not bid.
If you are prepared to do your homework and know what to look for and what questions to ask, your chances of finding a decent horn are greatly increased.
If you simply buy a horn on eBay just because you know that eBay will force a seller to accept a return under pretty much any circumstances (especially buyer stupidity), then you are abusing the system.
 
#33 ·
I believe the Ebay return policy is there to protect against deceptive sellers, not stupid buyers. No matter how informed you are, or how much you study pictures and ask questions, if you're decieved, you can still end up with a less than desirable horn being delivered to you.
 
#34 ·
Have you tried one? What do you think? I tried one in a pawn shop once. It needed some work but was playable. Despite being a vintage early 1930s horn, I found that example surprisingly bright and thin especially in the upper register. It reminded me a lot of a Yamaha 23 I used to have. I didn't buy it. Other examples might play differently. Definitely give a try if you can.

A big problem with buying online is that you might not like what you get and then you have to pay return shipping if returns are accepted. And if it is not playable, then you can't have an idea if you would like it until it was fixed up. And if you get it fixed up and don't like it, you may not be able to sell for what you paid to fix and repair.
 
#35 ·
JayePDX has given many helpful hints - and has a shop for refurbished instruments, linked at the bottom of his posts. He listed several instruments there, which could be great for your needs.
 
#36 ·
You could say that I have nothing against vintage horns, as I have a significant amount of money tied up with them. Yet, in your position, I would focus on having your 23 in good shape, playing, and school. Way more than half the horns I buy on ebay and other sites go back. It can be a very diversionary "hobby", and is not going to be a revelation to you or some huge improvement in your playing. I would focus on getting "your sound" out of your current horn. A bit later, when you have tried more horns and you have saved more money, and maybe more time if you make it the beginning of summer vacation, you could revisit a vintage horn. It's human to want what you don't have, but let the playing be the focus, not the dreaming of the chase of a vintage horn. As I said, it can be extremely time consuming.
 
#39 ·
Regarding the Holton, I can seem to get it online from a reputable seller for ~$600CAD including shipping and import taxes. They accept returns, and the saxophone is said to be in great condition. What do you think? Is it worth the $600? Based on your experiences, how are the ergonomics? Is the tone a big step up from my current horn?
Thanks so much for all of your help!
 
#42 ·
Based on my limited experience of having tried one in a pawn shop and having owned a Yamaha 23, I don't think the Holton would be a big step up in tone. I actually prefer the vintage ergonomics with the stack keys in line and left hand pink table more upright, but you can adapt. I do think you may be able to find something in your price range that you would like significantly better but of course your options increase as your budget increases.

If buying online, just consider shipping costs the price to try stuff out if you don't end up preferring to what you already have.
 
#40 ·
I would guess that you will need to pay at least $1500-1800US to get a "vintage" instrument that would be a significant/noticeable difference/improvement in tone versus your current Yamaha, and would be in reasonable playing condition.

You may be able to get hold of a clapped-out Conn 6M from the 1960s for short money, for example, but that's not the same horn as a 1946 Conn 6M. Very similar, but not the same. Now Saxquest has a silver plated 6M from the late 30s, with very heavy plating wear that they will sell you for $1800US, and they say they will make sure it's playing condition before it goes out. Honestly unless you can do repairs and repads yourself, that's kind of the minimum I would plan on to get a serious improvement over what you have now.

The only counterexample would be the Buescher True Tone but I would not recommend these for any but experienced players as they are reported to have many quirks in intonation and to be mouthpiece sensitive. There's a reason why they are one of the least expensive top-line vintage horns. Also, only the later ones had the front high F which is pretty much a required standard feature nowadays - and they will be priced accordingly.

In my opinion you would be better off considering $700 as a starting point to saving up for a better horn. The days of outstanding vintage horn deals are gone (I bought my 6M in 1978 for $130; my 12M baritone in 1984 for $750; there was a King Super 20 tenor with the pearls on the keys for sale at the same place in '78 for $400 that I have kicked myself many times for passing up - but those days are gone.)
 
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