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Help on buying a vintage saxophone

21K views 141 replies 34 participants last post by  2saxy4jazz 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,
My apologies if any of this post is done wrong, as this is my first post.
I apologize beforehand for the terrifyingly long post.

So, as the title says, i'm looking to upgrade from my YAS-23 alto saxophone to a vintage sax.
A bit of backstory: I'm going into grade 10 in high school, and i've been playing this Yamaha since I started playing 4 years ago in grade 6. The instrument has served me phenomenally.
Last year, I was lead alto in Jr. Jazz and Jr. Concert band, got onto the jazz festival "Jr. rep band" and got my second straight jazz award (most skilled overall in grades 8 and 9.)

This is going to be my 5th year playing.

I started private lessons this year, and I believe that I have gotten to skill level where a saxophone upgrade makes sense. I have upgraded my mouthpiece and ligature a while ago.

I have a job working tech over the summer, and my birthday is coming up mid-September, so I figured I'll try out some saxophones and go from there.

A little while ago, I stopped my my local music store and tried out a few altos there, namely the YAS-62III (~$3000CAD), and the P-Mauriat Le Bravo(~$2000CAD.) I absolutely loved the depth and richness of the tone with the Yamaha, and the keywork was familiar to me, so that helped as well. The P-Mauriat I tried I didn't like as much as I thought I would, but maybe that's just a matter of getting used to the horn?

However, I was surprised that I didn't feel the difference that I thought I would, the saxes being more than double the price of my YAS-23. Yes, the keywork was smoother, and the tone richer, but I personally couldn't really justify paying that much money (for a student)
for what seems like a pretty minimal upgrade (i'm obviously probably wrong in many people's eyes, but this is just my experience trying the horns.)

Unfortunately, I could only try these, as the other horns they had are all student/intermediate-level, like the one i'm thinking of upgrading from right now (YAS-26, YAS-475, some Alpine off brand.)

So then I started looking on my local (Metro Vancouver) craigslist. More than a month has since passed, and the only horns that i've seen so far that aren't student models, are a few $3000+ Selmers, and a King Zephyr for $1350. To be honest, I don't really want to spend over $700ish (and even that's pushing it) on a saxophone.

Then, however, I found out about vintage saxophones. And so, my last week has been hours a day researching vintage horns and looking them up on eBay.
Since with vintage saxes, you can get a pro-level horn for much less than a modern one, I was thrilled. I've also been hearing wonderful things about their tone, albeit while compromising on modern ergonomics.

I thought I found my sax-to-be a couple days ago, when I found a Martin 1927 Handcraft in "excellent condition" on eBay. It was an auction, that was currently sitting at ~$420CAD with 1 bid, including import fees, and shipping. I was thrilled!

I've read great things about vintage Martin horns. Excellent value, etc. My favourite words to hear!

The auction was supposed to end this morning at 10am Pacific Time, so I got up at 8, to get ready.
When I was what the price of the horn had gotten to, my jaw dropped.
It was sitting at over $1000CAD. Oh well, there goes my dream horn, lol.

After crying myself to sleep, I woke up at 11-ish, to give a final goodbye to the saxophone.
I opened up the the eBay page, and almost chucked my laptop across the room.
It said that the horn sold at it's original starting price of ~$420. It seems that someone either accidentally bid that price, then retracted it, or played a practical joke on us all.

Anyways, so now my question is, what do you guys think I should do? I'm still looking around on eBay, and I'm seeing a few Buescher true tone horns, ranging anywhere from $150-$600.
I saw this one where it says condition is as-is, auction is at ~$150CAD including import fees, shipping, etc. Based on pictures, it has a nice satin silver finish, with minimal (if any) dents and dings.
I don't know, it could be a cool project to take it apart, clean it, get new pads, and then take it to a tech to adjust it. From what i've read, buescher TT's aren't bad horns either.

Thanks so much for everyone's help.
 
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#112 ·
Okeydokie, here we go.
So I picked up the saxophone yesterday morning at the post office. Long story short, i'm not impressed, and here's why.
When I got to the post office, excited to pick up my saxophone, I was shocked to hear that I had to pay a $75 customs fee. I was shocked. Some of you will be like "well what were you expecting, etc." but I don't frequently shop from US sellers on eBay, and I've never had to pay this fee.
I was kinda pissed tbh because this fee was not mentioned ANYWHERE. I understand that the seller maybe might've not known about it, but they could've at least mentioned something along the lines of "by the way, there might be a customs tax," or something like that in the description, through messaging them for more questions, etc.
This brought my total cost up to $700CAD which is literally my limit. To add to that, I was pissed further because one of the reasons I went for this sax was because the shipping was higher than everyone else ($80CAD) so I figured that the tax might've been included in the shipping, but again, this wasn't mentioned anywhere.
At that point, I'm like fine, whatever, nothing I can do about this now. I ended spending $150 on shipping and tax alone. Screw customs.
Anyhow,
I eagerly took my saxophone home, and opened the huge cardboard box in came in. I slowly opened the black leather case, and closed my eyes.
When I opened them, I cursed a few times under my breath.
Keep in mind, I contacted the seller before buying the sax, and asked for more pictures, and I asked a lot of questions about how the condition is, how the pads are, etc. I got around 15 pictures, but none of them showed how bad it is really is.
I was told that the sax is in "great condition for it's age" and "plays amazingly." "Great condition for it's age" my *****.
The neck's lacquer had completely worn off and is covered in red rot, as is the inside of the bell. All the keys are covered in this green tarnish and the inside of the tone holes are covered in mold. Some of the keys stick, and are sluggish. Upon pressing the F, F#, E, D keys, they spring back while making this loud metal clang against metal sound.
When playing F natural, the horn makes this weird buzzing sound.
I'm honestly making it out worse than it is, but I just want to prove my point, you know?

Now on to the pros:
The horn sounds fabulous. Tbh, my Yamaha IMO has a better lower end, but in the upper registers, this horn SINGS.
Has real mother of pearl keys.
Other than tarnish on keys, red rot on neck, and lower 3 keys, horn is in relatively decent condition.
Ergos aren't too bad. I need a little bit of getting used to the G# key though.
But the reason I'm pissed, is because I bought this from a MUSIC STORE, thinking (and being told) that the horn is in great condition, and needs no adjustments. Tbh, they blatantly lied to me, and only showed me the pictures they want me to see.
In the end, I messaged them, asking essentially "What the hell," and I'm currently waiting for a response.
To pour pounds of salt into the wound, the day after I bought the sax, literally 10 saxes popped up on craigslist that were great and in my budget, among them, a YAS-32 (52) w/Meyer silver mouthpiece for $450CAD(!) from a retired music teacher. Shoot me.
Overall, this horn isn't bad. But hell.no for $700.
So ya. I could return it, and lose $150. I could try reselling it on craigslist. I could try something else, and lose less than $150.
Anyways, life lesson learned.

If you guys want, I can try posting pictures and audio.
On a completely unrelated note, (if this whole returning to seller thing doesn't work out,) I'm selling a Holton Revelation alto xD.
Thanks everyone.
 
#113 ·
Comparing the sax to my YAS-23:
YAS pro's (IMO):
More lush, airy, Stan Getz-y sound (with my setup, anyway.)
Better ERGOS imo (but that's to be expected.) G# key MUCH better. Key spacing better. D palm key better placed.
Virtually indestructable.
High F key larger and easier to get to.
Heavier (neither pro or con.)
Better compatability with all mouthpieces (out of the few i've tried.)

Holton pros (IMO):
Much, much nicer and fuller sounding tone at the top end.
Mother of pearl keys feel a lot nicer.
Looks IMO "cooler."
More even tone overall.
G# trill key.

Just a few of my thoughts.
 
#114 ·
I don't think the shipping of $80 CAD is over charging you. Shipping within states cost about USD $50, with the exchange rate, it becomes CAD $65. So, shipping across the border for $80 sounds reasonable. BTW, even if they take return, and if it is not because of mistake of the seller like misrepresenting the item, the shipping cost is usually not refundable. Think about it, they are not going to pay the shipping just to satisfy your curiosity on how a Holton play. If that's the case, your lost is CAD $150 + the return shipping, say another $80 which comes to $230. As said, buying and trying horns from Internet can be expensive. And honestly, how much you think you can get back by selling in craigslist? How much you are willing to pay if you can try it out? I guess max $300 if you are lucky. I think your Holton doesn't have a market at all. If I can get a much reliable YAS-23 for $350, why would anyone buy your Holton? Do your math.
 
#115 ·
1) I never said I though $80 was overcharging me. What I did say was that it was more expensive than the shipping for other saxophones.
I would lose $150 max by returning it, because I would have to pay customs ($75) and return shipping ($75.) Everything else is covered.
2) Me returning it and them (potentially) paying return shipping is quite reasonable IMHO. They lied about it being in great playing condition, and weren't upfront with the (likely) customs fees. Maybe i'm naive, but I don't think I should lose $150 for something that's their fault.
As I mentioned, they were very sneaky in describing the sax. There are unmentioned mechanical and cosmetic problems. I'm not returning the sax because I don't like it, I'm returning it because of the aforementioned problems. I payed $700 for what should be a serviced, good condition horn.
3) IMHO, Even in it's current state, the sax is still worth waaay more than a YAS-23. You're comparing a pro horn to a dime a dozen student sax, IMHO. Even though the market is quite small for these, I'm sure i'll eventually find someone.
Thanks.
 
#117 ·
That is not "custom fee", that is tax. It doesn't matter you agree or not, it is buyers responsibility to know about the import tax of the country. It is no seller's fault and there is no debate about it.

As for the tarnish, unless the seller say it is in mint condition or like new condition, otherwise, having some tarnish or corrosion on a vintage horn is not going to make the case. The only debatable thing is the playability of the horn. This is how it will play out. Unless the seller is super nice, otherwise, I don't think they will refund you the shipping. I am not going to judge who is right or wrong, as the process goes, you can submit a claim to eBay. Then you need to proof that the seller "lied" or misrepresenting the item. You can take it to a tech and get a repair quote.

But here is the thing, it sounds like the horn is at least playable. It may not be playing "amazingly" as described to your standard. But "to your standard" is subjective. Noisy keys are easy fix with just some cork. If the repair quote turns out to be say $80, that's not a very strong proof that the seller misrepresenting the item. You are lucky (or unlucky) that it actually plays, and the upper registers SINGS as you described. Based on what you said, if I were EBay, I don't think the seller misrepresent the item, because even you said it SINGS. In my previous cases, the horn doesn't even play. If I need to pay less that $200 to fix it, I consider it is "as described" and won't return.

BTW, Holton is a pro horn? Well ... Good luck selling it back out on Craigslist. A vintage Conn New Wonder or Buescher True Tone still have a market if they are cheap and in good condition. EVENTUALLY, you may be able to sell it, depending on the price. maybe a year, or maybe two ... That means you are stuck with this until it is sold.
 
#116 ·
Hello,

then check out the import duty and tax upfront to avoid further trouble when you return the horn.

Also I have a different thinking about the seller in regards of the import tax.
It is your duty as a buyer to check out the legal rules in your country. How should I know the rules in CAN when I ship something from Germany or would you make a promise about import taxes when you send the horn to me. Your local customs is adding the fee and yes they will take it on the full price, here shipping and cost of goods.

You can use this page as a starting point
http://www.dutycalculator.com/country-guides/Import-duty-taxes-when-importing-into-Canada/

BR
Juergen
 
#120 ·
I sent numerous eBay messages to the seller asking specifically "just to make sure, the sax is completely adjusted, and tuned up, with no leaks, and plays great, right?"
Their response was, word by word, "That's correct, it is ready to play, to leaks, with a great tone."
Regarding customs, I'll take the fault for that, however, In another message I specifically asked about shipping, and whether that was the cheapest option, they replied that it was, without any mention of possible customs fees. Once again, that's my fault.
 
#123 ·
No such thing as "red rot" on saxophones in the sense that brass players use it. Yes, exposed brass will turn red and/or green. But "red rot" is a term used to describe what happens inside the lead pipe of a trumpet, where it never dries out and the corrosion thins the metal to the point that it's just a paper thin section of tubing with a myriad of pinholes. The large bore of the saxophone means that you don't have that kind of accumulation and resulting damaging corrosion. (Maybe sometimes you could see it in the loop of a baritone.) You just have red corrosion on the outside, which a couple minutes with a rag and some Simichrome or Brasso will remove. The green stuff is the same, just messier. "Red rot" in the brass instrument sense is corrosion from the inside, where there is never either lacquer or plating to protect.
 
#125 ·
False alarm, everybody, lol.
I took out the horn during concert band today, and all that I can say is WOW.
The horn has absolutely amazing tone, and the feel is fantastic.
I went wrong where I was expecting a perfect condition vintage horn for $700- and I understand that.
Cosmetically, this thing is horrid. It's a nice type of horrid, though. The corrosion gives it character. I might later on try to remove some of the corrosion, but at this point it's not bothering me too much. After all, a saxophone is a musical instrument, not jewelry.
I played a few scales, and immediately, everyone's heads turned to look at me. I heard whispers around the sax section of people saying "wow."
I showed my teachers and they were amazed with the tone. IMO I definitely over reacted my last post. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.
Thanks!
 
#127 ·
I went wrong where I was expecting a perfect condition vintage horn for $700- and I understand that.
Not wrong at all. I believe back on Page 1 I listed a bunch of vintage horns which could be had in excellent condition for that dolla'. The one you got, just isn't quite where it should be.

On the other hand...$400usd for a Revelation which plays, no significant dents or body damage; but needs some work...eh....you didn't get reamed.

I am assuming THIS was the auction ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Hol...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Don't feel bad, don't blame yourself - as Dr. said, it's caveat emptor on eFlay....and many if not most sellers there know what NOT to mention. The plus side is, eFlay protection heavily lands on BUYER'S side of things, so if you are displeased with seller's omissions, you have some recourse if you so choose.

I agree with you, the seller misrepresented the sax. No shot of neck, no shot of bell interior. So if the horn is filthy inside, then indeed they purposely avoided disclosing that. If they sent the neck pic and it clearly shows red rot, that's a greyer area. Also, the key corrosion is a tougher matter- upon first glance of pics, the keys seem pretty clean, but when you look again in fact you can see corrosion. So, hard to fault them for not disclosing THAT. Always baffles me how a music store can claim a horn has been serviced (i.e therefore disassembled), but they didn't bother taking 10 minutes to dunk the body and neck in a chem or sonic bath. *** ?

(FWIW I respectfully disagree with Turf's take on Rot: saxes certainly get Red Rot - the term does not apply only to the interior tubes of brass instruments which never see the light of day. A Red Rot reaction can and does happen inside or outside a sax, and over time it IS damaging. It isn't just 'patina' or tarnish. It should be dealt with instead of left there. Many threads on subject in Tech section here).

It also sounds like there isn't sufficient regulating materials on the key feet of the lower stack. Can you see, is there cork there on the key feet ? That would explain the clicking/clanging. Either that or the key barrels are loose on the pivot rod.

It might be worth contacting 'em and asking for a small partial refund due to the rot on neck and inside body, and if there's an absence of cork as noted above. Just my 2 cents. Don't necessarily get into a pissing contest..I would ask for like $40-50 back on that, myself. See where it goes.

Or, as Saxcop says, take it to a tech for a quick estimate, and a list of scope of work required. Then approach seller with that list and estimate (word of advice, if you like the horn and the estimate exceeds $100-120usd, this may backfire on you and they might just ask for the horn back for a refund (although you lose your customs fee and likely your return ship fee). There comes a point on a $400 sax sale when a seller will NOT entertain partially refunding a certain % of the sale price, you know ? Regardless of whether they are acting unjustly or not).

Here's the good news, though: a chem bath or sonic cleaning of the body and neck will get rid of all of that interior nastiness and exterior neck rot. That isn't usually an expensive proposition from a tech...maybe $50-100 (with no other servicing besides disassembling the horn, bathing it, and reassembling it).

IMHO, at least get the NECK bathed by a tech...get that red rot off. It isn't just 'cosmetic'. THAT should only cost you around $20-25 at a tech; you don't even need to bring the entire sax in. Heck, PM me and I can give you some pointers on how you can just use hardware-store purchased cleaners that will get that off quickly.

If you feel the pads are sticky, there are some Rx's for that as well which can be done with keys ON horn.

The keys ? You could try buying some Wenol or Maas polish in a tube and going at the green spots. Keep in mind this may mean the green areas end up showing bare brass afterward, but it might make it look better. Tarnished/greened/rotted keys are a toughie if the PADS are good on 'em, because they obviously cannot be dipped. Gets even more difficult when they have to stay on the horn. Paste polish is about your only option unless you wanna spring for new pads (which you certainly don't).

These ARE really good horns...I have refurbed around a dozen Revelations, they are really every bit as good as something like a 6M or a Committee. My Tenor is a goldplated Revelation. This is the Tenor I have kept for myself, after having Conns, Martins, Bueschers, SML's, Keilwerths, Selmers, S20's, Beaugniers, etc. come thru here over the years.

(A member above is sorta dissing a Revlation as not being "Pro" ? Unfortunately at times one must move beyond market values as the major criteria in determining the 'worth' of an instrument; particularly when the critic lacks sufficient experience WITH the particular model to make such a determination.
If one claims a Rev isn't a Pro horn - then by such measure, neither is a 10M, Comm III, Buescher 400, etc, etc. If one is using a yardstick which makes any of those classic American models "Pro", then a Holton Revelation or 23X model stands up quite nicely to the same criteria).

So you have a very nice one there, probably worth keeping.
 
#126 ·
Nickel plated keys do not make it a student horn. Holton Revelation is an upper shelf Holton. I would play that horn over a Yamaha 23 any day. The fact the seller misrepresented the horn doesn't make the the purchase a bad decision. I've purchased dozens of horns on Ebay with no problem at all.

Take the thing into a tech and get an estimate on putting it in playing shape. Then ask for some coin back.

I sold a horn to Canada and the buyer didn't pay the duty. I had shipped it Fedex. Fedex was going to try to charge me. I called the buyer and he paid it. You should know what your own tax laws are. I can tell you I wont ship a horn to Canada unless I collect the duty on my end first.
 
#129 ·
Nickel plated keys do not make it a student horn. Holton Revelation is an upper shelf Holton. I would play that horn over a Yamaha 23 any day. The fact the seller misrepresented the horn doesn't make the the purchase a bad decision. I've purchased dozens of horns on Ebay with no problem at all.
Everyone needs to be aware that this seller did no more regarding misrepresenation that you would be wise to expect from any seller on ebay, unless it is a seller you personally know to be reputable.

False alarm, everybody, lol.
Great news. It is worth noting that you often need a bit more time to get used to and evaluate a saxophone or mouthpiece. It's good that lessons have been learned about importing saxophones.
 
#128 ·
For the price you paid it looks like that horn's in pretty damn good shape, if the link JayePDX provided is the horn in question. You should see what I was sent, for $1600, the one time I tried buying a vintage horn on Ebay! As for the shipping and duty charge, I think they pretty well warned you.
Put another $600-700 into fixing it up, and you should have yourself a pretty nice horn.
 
#130 ·
I disagree Pete. The buyer had additional communications with the seller beyond the listing. There is a paranoia about buying horns from Ebay. I love it as it keeps the prices lower. Learn some repair skills and a whole world of cheap horns is out there to be had. Especially in alto.

I have something like 35 pro tenors. Insert about any model in there. I have a Holton 241. It doesn't have the slickest key work. However the tone is to die for. It sounds a bunch like a 10m. I paid $200 for it and lucky if I could sell it for $600 after overhaul. I bought it partly from JayPDX's comments on Holton. He was right.
 
#131 ·
A couple of years ago I bought a vintage 1950's B Flat Buescher baritone, on E-Bay it looked well cared for and the description and photo's seemed "custi" so I parted with £1200.00, which for a vintage Buescher bari seemed pretty fair. When it turned up, it had minor issues, which I sorted out, apart from no matter where I pushed the MPC on the crook it had top end tuning issues, when I got the top end in tune,the bottom end became thin and out of tune and v/v. I wondered if MPC choice was a factor, so I tried all my baritone MPC's on it and it made not one jot of difference. I got my sax tech to look at it and he managed make it sound better, but still one of the palm keys was very very slightly out and the MPC position still continued to cause a difference in top and low end tuning to correct it. It had never been dropped, I didn't re-circulate it on E-Bay instead put it towards my fab 1958 12M Lady Face with a considerable cash adjustment. To be honest I wasn't that overly struck on its voice.
 
#135 ·
I wrote about how time consuming and diversionary vintage saxes can be, especially when in school and having studies, extra curricular activities, saxophone practice, etc. are fighting for your time. This is a small taste.....and a typical situation......

I still say stick with what you have for a while until you have more funds and more time, and have experienced more horns.

Far less diversionary would be to try used saxes and different new saxes as your travels take you to different towns and cities over the next few years. Build a "data set of sound and playing characteristics" in your head. Make notes. If you quickly buy some vintage sax now, you will still keep wondering what all the others sound like. Don't be in a rush, you don't have an immediate need.
 
#140 ·
I think we all agree that with the exception of a certain few online sellers, buying a decent sax online is like walking in a mine field. No matter how careful and attentive you are to finding out whatever you can about a given horn, you still won't know what you've got till it arrives, if you take the chance of buying it.
My brief journey into the world of vintage horns produced a horn that smelled so bad of mold and mildew that you would swear it had been stored in a dirt-floor cellar for a hundred years! It stunk up my house even zipped inside a new Pro-tec gig bag. Five minutes of blowing on it, and I had a taste in my mouth that I didn't get rid of till it was on its way back, the next day. And that's only a small part of what was wrong!
 
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