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Shop ripped off unwitting customer... Does one intervene?

5K views 40 replies 17 participants last post by  jgreiner 
#1 · (Edited)
I had a customer come to me with an old B&H Emperor clarinet, her beginner daughter is learning on it. Over the phone she told me "the bottom keys are sticking". Of course, I know better than to take their word that they know what they're talking about.
When she dropped it off, I saw the whole thing was a mess. A crack in the top joint, bent keywork all over, half the posts loose, 2 broken springs, loose tenons, rods & screws dirty and bone dry.
I gave her the advice that it was probably not economically feasible, but she wanted to go ahead with it anyway - she inherited it, it was sentimental.

Then she told me that she had it 'serviced' a year and a half ago, at a cost of nearly $1000. Suffice to say my jaw dropped. Apparently it was done through a well-known music retail store, 10 minutes drive from me. I believe they subcontract the jobs out, I don't know who to though. There appeared to have been almost zero work actually done on the instrument (maybe a pad or two changed).

My dillema is, should I intervene? Should I go to the shop and have a chat with them about it? I'm just a small-time hobby repairer and I'm not sure if it's my place to say anything.
 
#3 ·
#4 ·
No do not intervene, make a recommendation to the customer, advise them to take it back if you think she was ripped off.

A lot of music stores attempt to do repairs themselves, some are very good some are very poor, their is no guarantee that the instrument was not repaired by them rather than there chosen repairer.

By you approaching the store, it will simply start a **** fight where regardless of you being right or wrong, you will come of worse for it, damaged reputation and so forth.

I also know, that you have to not look at the Price associated with the repairs, i get offended sometimes when I see people who I think are incompetent in my locality charge 500 percent more than me., but the fact is, if someone is stupid enough to pay that price to them, then that is there choice.

Steve
 
#5 ·
well, I thought that you had laws there, as anywhere else, to protect the public from rogue traders

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees

Services must:

be provided with acceptable care and skill or technical knowledge and taking all necessary steps to avoid loss and damage
be fit for the purpose or give the results that you and the business had agreed to
be delivered within a reasonable time when there is no agreed end date.

If this wouldn't be the case there would be no laws against people betting on street where three card trickers operate.

People should know better... right? Yet it is unlawful to trick people and laws are there to protect all of us.

 
#6 ·
Yes we have laws here milandro, but that does not mean people comply to those laws, as always it's up to the morals of the person doing the work and you deciding if you want to take them to court if unhappy with the situation, taking a person to court is merely having an independent third party make a ruling based on written law.

its like policing, we have laws about murder,theft,rape and everything in between, but the police cannot enforce the law until it's broken, so they cannot do anything preventative to really stop it, all the can do is prosecute the guilty party retrospectively

I am sure this is the same for every country.

It's also every persons right to charge what they feel is fair to them, irrespective of whether their peers agree with that charge or not.

If people are silly enough to use these rogue individuals then that is there choice

Steve
 
#7 ·
Then she told me that she had it 'serviced' a year and a half ago, at a cost of nearly $1000. Suffice to say my jaw dropped. Apparently it was done through a well-known music retail store, 10 minutes drive from me. I believe they subcontract the jobs out, I don't know who to though. There appeared to have been almost zero work actually done on the instrument (maybe a pad or two changed).
we are not talking of charging a high price for good work, we are talking of a high price for almost NO work.

OP asks about if he has a moral obligation to denounce a rogue trader. I answered that he can tell the client that she has recourse.

I've shown that it is possible, lawful and morally acceptable in Australia like everywhere else.
 
#8 ·
You missed the point I think milandro, in there opinion it is a high price based on very little factual evidence.

In there opinion it's high, in the stores opinion it would not be.

The customer told them they paid x dollars to x store on x date, so firstly the assumption is being made customer is telling the truth.

The person is assuming that it was repaired by the stores sub contractor

The person is assuming based on the customers statement that this store did the repair.

The person is assuming they only changed a couple of pads

I'm not dis agreeing with the op, I personally have no idea on the real situation or been involved in the transaction, but having dealt with a multitude of the same situations, I have personally learnt a lot in regards to what people can and cannot claim, I have also learnt a lot in regards to what people claim happened at x store or with x person.

Steve
 
#10 ·
So let's see how that goes, a customer had a saxophone repaired over a year ago at a store which they happily paid the price for, only to now redoubt that position because there current choice of repairer feels that they may have been ripped of at that time, this is based on the fact that the current repairer cannot see anything more than a couple of pads that may have been changed.

If it went to court, the customer would not win, not by a long shot, the story is almost comical, not trying to sound rude or harsh, but being a realist.

To the current op, advice, seriously do not get involved in starting a pissing war with the store when you personally do not know the facts.

Been their done that, never good for you...

Steve
 
#11 ·
maybe not, but once the trading standards are alerted, this leaves a paper trail, next complaint will add to that and so on until the trading standards have sufficient proof.

They have the ability to revoke licenses. The best way to protect the trade is weed out the bad traders.

Honest traders such as yourself should all be for a clean trading place. Trading standards do precisely that.

I applaude OP for his scruples and the fact that he wants to rid the community of a bad trader.
 
#12 ·
There is no license required to operate and run a business in Australia.

Some jobs require a qualification and some also require an industry based certification to offer said services

The repair of a musical instrument falls into neither category.

It frustrates the **** out of me, rogue traders, but the fact is industry and governments could not care less. I deal with this stuff weekly with some other known personalities. That does not mean I am right and they are wrong, it means it's a matter of opinion.

steve
 
#13 ·
That's a pity, in other countries one has to be a licensed repairer to be able to repair things ( how would anyone be otherwise guaranteed from incapable people calling themselves a repairer ruining an instrument?) or at the very least needs to be part of the chamber of commerce which might expel him or her if they don't abide the rules registered by the chamber of commerce.

Anyway there are statutory obligations which even a saxophone repairer has to abide and to be breaking those has to carry some sanctions even under simple general practice rules affecting any repair shop of any sort.

That's why..

Let the authorities decide and, if possible, act.

Apparently a diploma is required or at least advised.

https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/LMFMI3011A

In the curriculum they refer to a industry code of practice :

Legislative requirements

are to be in accordance with applicable legislation from all levels of government that affect organisational operation. Requirements may include but not be limited to award and enterprise agreements, industrial relations, Australian Standards, confidentiality and privacy, OHS, the environment, equal opportunity, anti-discrimination, relevant industry codes of practice, duty of care and heritage.
Organisational requirements

may include but not be limited to legal, organisational and site guidelines, policies and procedures relating to own role and responsibility, quality assurance, procedural manuals, quality and continuous improvement processes and standards, OHS, emergency and evacuation, ethical standards, recording and reporting, access and equity principles and practices, equipment use, maintenance and storage, environmental management (waste disposal, recycling and re-use guidelines)
 
#14 ·
We hear about repairmen on here that charge outrageous amounts for repairs, large neck screws, things to work on reeds that cost $50 for a piece of metal you can get for $5, hacked on vintage mouthpieces for $1200, etc.
I don't see why this surprises or bothers you. It's a common business practice since people realized there is a dime they can squeeze out of us.
 
#15 ·
Sorry milandro, a few things are wrong there, training organisations can recommend things, but that does not mean it is a legal requirement to operate a business.

As far as the general terminology you have referenced above, their is no industry code of practice for instrument repair, as far as everything else, that is general requirements of business saying you should comply with general employment conditions and awards based around care of employees and sub contractors, emergency plans and so forth.

I have also worked in other industries prior to repairing, which required high levels of qualification and yearly certifications from multiple government and civil agenices before you could commence any work, this is almost the opposite end of the spectrum to a music instrument repairer

Steve
 
#16 ·
if there is no industry code of practice ( the knowledge of which is recommended in the training course quoted above therefor they are requiring something that doesn’t exist?) the frequent episodes of malpractice reported lately on this forum would most certainly make one necessary!

The fact that you say that no license, no code of practice, no controlling organs or authorities appear to exist, makes it all too possible, in fact certain since we know this has happened many times now, as reported before, that anyone could start mending instruments and causing damages and get away with it.

The Australian bonafide technicians should DEMAND a licensing system and the creation of a controlling authority precisely to defend themselves from being mistaken for this sort of rogue traders.
 
#17 ·
Yep, you finally nailed it, anyone can open a business tomorrow offering there skills as a repairer. With little to no chance of being held accountable for there business practices or ethics should they be unscrupulous in there dealings with customers.

One of the reasons I commented to the op, advise the customer and then stay out of it.
 
#18 ·
very very dangerous situation, the bona fide techs should have a guild with rules and safeguards to protect themselves and the public.

I see the damage done by self proclaimed technicians here in the NL but these operate without having an official company if they had an official company there would eb at least some recourse at the chamber of commerce where, since 2008, enrollment is compulsory.
 
#19 ·
I read this in the first post:
I had a customer come to me with an old B&H Emperor, her beginner daughter is learning on it .... Then she told me that she had it 'serviced' a year and a half ago, ...
Remembering the stuff beginners (and sadly more than one advanced players) do with and to their saxes. Im talking hold it under water so "the pads seal better", dry on something warm/hot after taking it out in the rain, walk into things or simply dropping it.

A lot of good work can be undone in a year and a half.
 
#23 ·
a milder version of this happened to me a few years back in Maine, and i am a pro. A well known shop (part of a chain) worked on my alto and it played like crap. I was mystified. When I finally found another (and excellent) tech he told me that the horn was a mess, and that the repair guy in the afforementioned shop did not even play the saxophone. Which amazed me. So...he took pity on me and basically re-fixed it for cost; a real mensch, as we say. But sometimes you just don't know. I could have put up a stink, and I probably should have, but too much time had passed and, truthfully, I didn't feel like dealing with it. To much going on with work, kids, and life in general.
 
#24 ·
Playing the saxophone is certainly a good thing but one of the best technicians in the Netherlands ( or so many people say, among others our own Warp X says so) , Nico Bodewes, doesn’t play too ( and many others only play a bare minimum) and he delivers perfectly closing saxophones.
 
#26 ·
I’m sure you know you’re not obligated to do anything other than give the customer an honest assessment of the situation. Finding out what actually happened with the other shop 18 months ago would be difficult. It’s possible, perhaps even likely, that they swindled her, but it’s also possible that some sort of misunderstanding occurred.

If you felt compelled to get to the bottom of things, I would think you would need to see the work order and receipt, to know for certain how the horn has been used or stored since it was supposedly serviced, and talk to the tech. It might be enjoyable to go round to the other shop’s tech with the horn and receipt in hand and ask, “Am I to understand you charged $1000 to render this horn in playable condition?” Just to see the look on his face.

But all that would take time and effort that you’re under no obligation to supply. Honestly, the greatest favor you could probably do for this customer would be to convince to keep the old horn as a keepsake, save the repair money, and invest in a more playable beginner’s horn.
 
#27 ·
It seems the consensus is in... leave it to the customer to decide if she wants to follow it up. Thanks all.

Honestly, the greatest favor you could probably do for this customer would be to convince to keep the old horn as a keepsake, save the repair money, and invest in a more playable beginner's horn.
Of course, I agree with you 100%, but there's no convincing some people. I offered her a loan horn for the kid to take to band camp over the weekend while I worked on her horn; she turned it down, said she wants the kid to play on her own horn.
 
#28 ·
At times I have helped the customer by providing them with a very specific list of the issues that are obvious to a trained eye. That gives the customer some specific clout to follow it up if they wish, without me getting further involved.
 
#30 ·
This is the best course, you can get mighty diverted and use up a lot of time when you go above and beyond the call of duty and fight a customer's battle for them. Arm the customer, make suggestions on the course of action, and pull out at that point. It's up to the customer to take it further, or not.....
 
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