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Martin tenor 173xxx repad suggestions?

4K views 21 replies 16 participants last post by  hgrail 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi, I've recently stumbled upon a 173xxx tenor in fantastic original condition. She doesn't play very well on original pads and I'm wondering which route to take regarding resonators for an overhaul. I've had horns set up in the past where a repair tech would recommend a certain size/make of reso and, when receiving the horn, I was upset that the sound had changed drastically. With a bit of coaxing I can get some notes out of this Martin and the tone is amazing. I just don't want to screw it up.

Is it in my interest and acceptable to keep simple rivet pads on this horn? Do you have a suggestion?

Thanks.
 
#2 ·
I just had a set of Noyek waffled resonators removed from my '54 Martin bari as I felt they disrupted the harmonic structure too much. We went with standard-ish sized flat stainless resonators on the bottom and somewhat larger relative sizes on the top half of the horn, so far so good. Definitely a smoother sound than the Noyeks but still huge. I'm sure domes would be fine too but not sure they're needed on these horns... I don't think you can go too wrong, I bet these horns would still sound great even without resonators. Mostly - in my very humble opinion - you're buying some volume as you go up in size and from flat to dome, and probably a little brightness along with it. Too big and you might make headaches for the tech setting them up and seating the pads. Waffled resonators seem to add more upper harmonics and grit. They were fun but I wanted to experience the horn without them. I wouldn't over stress about the choice, personally - the horn will be great regardless with new pads etc. Since you like the sound (when you hear it) why not just stick with what's there now?
 
#3 ·
Flat metal resonators is my Martin choice. Some of mine have domed plastic, flat metal and rivets and I just keep what is on the horn but for a repad flat metal. What is more important is they MUST be THIN pads. If too fat, they will hit the back of the tone hole with time and be an adjustment problem.
Also flat metal resos look period correct although Martins usually just had rivet pads.
 
#15 ·
Flat metal resonators is my Martin choice.
Either flat metal resos or rivets for me. Martins play very well with either of those choices.

What is more important is they MUST be THIN pads. If too fat, they will hit the back of the tone hole with time and be an adjustment problem.
Absolutely. Even if you bend the keys to match thick pads, it just doesn't feel right. "Thin" pads, for those who are unfamiliar, are usually around .160"-ish in thickness from the various vendors.

A differing opinion . . . I don't think it matters what style of resonators one installs - as long as there are resonators installed. And, I don't think tonal differences can be proven to result from different styles of resonators. I'd go into lengthy detail to back that up, but it has all been said on SOTW many times. DAVE
I think on a lot of vintage horns you do need to be careful with resonators. On some of these horns, you'll run into setups that work best with lower key heights (and sometimes the openings are limited by the geometry of the key feet and what they're resting against), in which case, a protruding resonator could affect the overall venting of the key.

But the bigger concern in my mind is the weight of the resonator itself. On a sax with lighter springs, such as a Martin, a heavier resonator will require stiffer spring action.

I remember a YAS-61 where the owner specifically requested oversized solid brass domed hunks (he even supplied a set he bought from a gentleman in New Orleans) and the springs had to be tightened significantly to accommodate the extra weight. Key heights also needed to be increased because these resonators were extremely thick. None of this seemed to bother him but some players would object...and the horn did sound like Phil Woods on steroids :)

If your Martin plays too loud or brash, learn to play soft (which does require a well set up horn). But resonators causing a horn to be too loud? That's like saying "WHEN I WEAR THESE SHOES, I TALK TOO LOUD." I don't think the problem is the shoes.
Sax players in my area are cursed with insanely loud bands, questionable sound technicians, and year-round outdoor gigs, so I get a lot of requests to create louder, brighter setups. So one of the things I do is use oversized resonators for these folks. And this depends largely on the player, his mouthpiece/reed setup, and the type of work he's doing.

Honestly, IMHO, the fact that the horn is tight and not leaking is a bigger deal, and I think there is definitely some placebo effect with some of these players, but if they're happy with bigger resonators, so am I...my only caveats tend to be along the lines of venting and additional weight - mechanical concerns - as I mentioned earlier. But many saxes, especially the more modern ones, seem to cooperate just fine with all of this.

But, again, a sax properly set up is going to have a bigger effect on the end result. Usually by the time I get a sax from a working pro it's pretty much unplayable, so a good setup, with just about any kind of resonator, is going to be a huge step forward for them.

Nobody in my area is asking for a quieter, darker, more polite horn, even among the guys who are fortunate enough to play that way and get away with it. But that could be achieved on a loud/bright setup quite easily through mouthpiece and reed choice, as well as whatever the player is bringing to the table in terms of embouchure, airstream, and voicing...so I tend to set up my personal instruments to be loud and bright and use those other variables to moderate it when needed...
 
#4 ·
Double to the no turbo resonators. I know of another guy who felt his entire setup was ruined by them. If you want a sizzling blues horn maybe...but if you want that traditional Martin vibe go light on the resonators, a Martin is a power machine. It does not need an added turbo charge. I have domes in mine...they were there when I got it. I'd pic smaller flat ones given the choice.
 
#5 ·
A differing opinion . . . I don't think it matters what style of resonators one installs - as long as there are resonators installed. And, I don't think tonal differences can be proven to result from different styles of resonators. I'd go into lengthy detail to back that up, but it has all been said on SOTW many times. DAVE
 
#6 ·
Thin pads, flat metal resos as Bruce B stated.
I have resotech resonators on my The Martin Tenor.
 
#9 ·
Interesting, thanks. I liked my Martin when I first got it, but it needed an overhaul and the tech who plays Martins recommended metal resonators like those for the Balanced Action. So I went for that, but it changed the sound of the horn significantly. I don't know for sure whether it was because of the overhaul or the resonators or both, but I preferred the sound before.
 
#10 ·
I used MusicMedic thick soft pads with flat metal/rivet resos on my '42 Handcraft and '54 Comm tenors. They are thinner and harder than one might think by the name. Well under Ferrees thick. Very traditional feel on both horns. Too thin and hard isn't for me.

I'm surprised no one has suggested taking measurements - diameter and thickness - particularly since they are original. Use the same thickness, no?
 
#12 ·
I know this discussion is about Martin tenors, but I believe the principle is the same across the saxophone spectrum. My Martin Handcraft straight soprano (1926) came to me with those wavy Noyek resonators. It plays fine.

I just had a 1927 straight Conn redone. It had Noyek resos in it, and I had the tech install slightly domed brass-with-center-rivet resonators installed. It plays fine.

Before the Conn, he did my 1959 MKVI soprano with slightly domed plastic resonators. It plays fine.

They all sound about the same, with the same volume, strength, and response. I sure can't pull resonator-design out of those three and make a case either way for them. I think a good overhaul is the key to it, not the resonator. DAVE
 
#13 ·
I totally agree with both Dave's posts.

Hi, I've recently stumbled upon a 173xxx tenor in fantastic original condition. She doesn't play very well on original pads...
It won't be the pads that are the issue. It will be the way the instrument has not been adjusted to eliminate leaks and have adequate venting.
And in that case, it is not in "fantastic original condition". It needs adjustment by a decent technician.
 
#14 ·
Domed resonators work best on Martins. All other style resonators sound really, really bad. Just kidding. I have domed rivetless and black Roo pads. This is my choice on all horns. The pads on my Martin are going on 7 years of almost daily play and it plays whisper quiet to howling dog.

If your Martin plays too loud or brash, learn to play soft (which does require a well set up horn). But resonators causing a horn to be too loud? That's like saying "WHEN I WEAR THESE SHOES, I TALK TOO LOUD." I don't think the problem is the shoes.

Mark
 
#17 ·
Rick:

Even if those old pads don't show leaks with a light, they will be hard and uneven after 65 years. The horn might play as is, but you will get the full potential of sound after a good repad.

Regarding resonators, you don't need or want Noyeks on the Martin horns. I've owned and played several of them. They sound big enough as is. A thin pad with simple flat resonators as Bruce suggest is best.

You shouldn't sweat the resonator thing. It's not that big of a deal. The skill of your tech will outweigh any difference in the type of pad you choose. Best to find an experienced tech and work from there.
 
#18 ·
The whole "Martins need thinner pads" myth... that used to be a thing here a few years ago. Eventually I asked those claiming that to actually post what thickness of pads specifically they were talking about when they said "thinner"... turned out it was approximately 0.16 inch thick... which is the same as what most saxophone need and the same thickness I found to work on Martins... which I call "normal". It's a minority of saxophones that use thicker pads than that.

A lot of Martins are made in a way that makes them a pretty bad option for significantly altering pad cup angles, but it's better to use the correct ("thinner") pads on any saxophone if possible instead of significantly changing the pad cup angle to work with a different pad.
 
#21 ·
I think Ferrees confused the world by listing what we use 95% of the time, 0.165", as "thin" pads, and calling their seldom used thicker (0.185") ones "medium". (Nobody would ever use thicker than that!)
Most of the comments in this thread discussed the need for "thin" pads, rather than "thinner" pads. StuartSax mentioned the thick MusicMedic pads, which are "thinner" than the Ferree's thick pads. I'm sure he got a great result, but in my experience I've found their thinnest pads to work well on Martins.

But as Gordon pointed out, these terms are really an inadequate way of describing the thickness of a pad. 0.160"-0.165" is essential for Martin and very appropriate for many other saxes.

At any rate, I'm all in favor of using the "correct" pad in every instance.

I probably go at this from the other direction. My mouthpiece preference tends towards medium tip opening and large chamber. My sound tends towards Lester Young (in volume, not technique, note choice, or anything else). If I need to peel paint, which is seldom, I change reed to a Hartman carbon fiber on the same mouthpiece. I could put on my Metalite mouthpiece with a carbon fiber reed, but then I'd have to wear ear plugs. No need to worry about resonators.
This is equally valid. Either way, the player's choice of gear, airstream, and embouchure is going to play a large part in the end result, and regardless of which direction you're going, the player has a lot of flexibility without changing the resonators.
 
#19 ·
I think Ferrees confused the world by listing what we use 95% of the time, 0.165", as "thin" pads, and calling their seldom used thicker (0.185") ones "medium". (Nobody would ever use thicker than that!)
 
#22 ·
Flat metal resos. That's what I did on my Martin tenor and baris and it worked really well.

Made the mistake of putting domed resos on a Martin Handcraft bari. It made the intonation so bad I wound up removing them from the upper half of the horn.

Flat flat FLAT!
 
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