split bell aristocrat alto?

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  1. #1

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    Default split bell aristocrat alto?

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-BUES...4AAOSwFNZWyzqW

    I saw this on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-BUES...4AAOSwFNZWyzqW

    I'm assuming this must have been a transition from the New Aristocrat to the Aristocrat? This one looks like someone accidentally stripped the lacquer off the bell area trying to "clean it".

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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    It's a True Tone, right? Looks exactly like my TT....

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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    I'd say it has to be a New Aristocrat or a New Aristocrat - Aristocrat transitional model. The serial number shows it at the tail end of the New Aristocrat run and it is engraved "Aristocrat" below the Buescher lettering.

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Technically it's a model 135 alto with split bell keys and the Art Deco Aristocrat engraving. What we call a TT is a model 126.

    Easiest visual clue to tell the difference, besides the engraving, is the pinky table.

    Pictures are pretty fuzzy, so it's hard to be certain. They dropped the "NEW" from the engraving at some point prior to the 237xxx instruments -- which, of course, by then wasn't new. It's the same instrument, however, as the ones that have "NEW" engraved on them under the "THE". You can look on Saxpics, and you'll see that all the silver altos with the 237k and later serial numbers are like this. Might be earlier.

    Anyway, I'm not one that thinks the engraving counts as something that makes it "transitional" -- particularly when that's the only difference, but clearly they transitioned one word out the engraving at some point while they were still making the 135 with split bell keys.
    1926 Buescher Model 122 True Tone Series III Gold Plated Soprano
    1936 Buescher Model 139 Custom Built Bare Brass Baritone
    1938 Buescher Model 127 Aristocrat (Art Deco) Tenor

    1938 Buescher Model 139 Aristocrat Gold Plated Baritone
    1947 Buescher Model B-11 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Bare Brass Tenor
    1949 Buescher Model B-7 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Silver Plated Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 140 Aristocrat (Big B) Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 156 Aristocrat (Big B) Gold Plated Tenor
    1970-something Yamaha Model YBS-61 Baritone
    2015 Vibrato A1S III Plastic Alto

    Morgan, Ishimori, Strathon, and Theo Wanna Mouthpieces.





    Nothing works so well in gathering information as a display of ignorance. I learn something new every day.


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    Forum Contributor 2011 Bob M's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    pontius - It is essentially the same horn as I bought from you nearly a year ago, except a few years newer (263,xxx versus 267,xxx). BTW, you should see that horn after its silver restoration at the hands of Mark Aronson. It looks and plays beautifully.
    “You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me.”

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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob M View Post
    pontius - It is essentially the same horn as I bought from you nearly a year ago, except a few years newer (263,xxx versus 267,xxx). BTW, you should see that horn after its silver restoration at the hands of Mark Aronson. It looks and plays beautifully.


    that's great! I have been thinking about PM'ing you to see how that turned out. I'd love to see some pictures! I still have my 1934 Aristocrat alto that I have yet to re-pad but it will get done before spring hits! I'd love to get my hands on a tenor.

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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    its the right vintage for the new aristocrat and if the engraving photo was better i reckon it has NEW written on it...

    maddema i think these new aristocrats only came out in the #260,000 serial# range not #237xxx you talk about?....

    i was sure these were a transition horn between the "the buescher" and "the aristocrat"....?

    as a side note,i saw one of these new aristocrats here in australia with H.P. high pitch....

    cheers,philip
    philip from down-under
    secondhandsaxes.com.au

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian paulwl's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Altos were branded "The New Aristocrat" from 263k-267k, "Aristocrat" 267k-268k, then retooled (Aristocrat Series 1, beginning at 270k).

    Tenors were branded "The New Aristocrat" from 265k-267k, "Aristocrat" 267k-268k, then retooled.

    Baris were never branded "The New Aristocrat." Just "The Buescher" thru 267k, "Aristocrat" after 268k. No retooling, but several improvements added (Nortons, front F, etc.) The only New Crat bari I have ever seen was a catalog illustration, probably mocked up.
    Last edited by paulwl; 09-23-2016 at 08:18 PM.
    "80 years passed before we heard the tenor...in the hands of cads with centre partings & co-respondent's shoes. They squeezed syrupy, farting, oleaginous sounds from their cavernous chambers & microscopic tip openings." –Captain Beeflat, 2013

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhandsaxes View Post
    maddema i think these new aristocrats only came out in the #260,000 serial# range not #237xxx you talk about?....
    Sorry, typo on my part. Meant 267xxx. That was about when the word "NEW" was dropped from the engraving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhandsaxes View Post
    i was sure these were a transition horn between the "the buescher" and "the aristocrat"....?
    It was actually the new alto model after the TT. Introduced in 1931, they ran with split bell keys until about 1936 when the l/h bell key 135's with the same engraving came out. Those are that are fundamentally the same instrument with a different bell, neck, and spatula table. You could call that transitional, but people tend to think of it (and value it) as a distinct model because of the bell key change in the middle of the run.
    1926 Buescher Model 122 True Tone Series III Gold Plated Soprano
    1936 Buescher Model 139 Custom Built Bare Brass Baritone
    1938 Buescher Model 127 Aristocrat (Art Deco) Tenor

    1938 Buescher Model 139 Aristocrat Gold Plated Baritone
    1947 Buescher Model B-11 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Bare Brass Tenor
    1949 Buescher Model B-7 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Silver Plated Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 140 Aristocrat (Big B) Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 156 Aristocrat (Big B) Gold Plated Tenor
    1970-something Yamaha Model YBS-61 Baritone
    2015 Vibrato A1S III Plastic Alto

    Morgan, Ishimori, Strathon, and Theo Wanna Mouthpieces.





    Nothing works so well in gathering information as a display of ignorance. I learn something new every day.


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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian paulwl's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    I've seen catalogs with the Series 1 horns dated Nov-Dec. 1934!
    "80 years passed before we heard the tenor...in the hands of cads with centre partings & co-respondent's shoes. They squeezed syrupy, farting, oleaginous sounds from their cavernous chambers & microscopic tip openings." –Captain Beeflat, 2013

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulwl View Post
    Altos were branded "The New Aristocrat" from 263k-267k, "Aristocrat" 267k-268k, then retooled (Aristocrat Series 1).
    Depends on what you mean by re-tooled. Different bell and neck, some key work changes, same body. Arguably the different variations on the 135's would sound a little different due to the neck and bell, but most of the instrument was the same.

    Neck, spatula, and engraving changed on the 127 tenor at the same time the 135 was introduced, but no other significant changes I've been able to find.
    1926 Buescher Model 122 True Tone Series III Gold Plated Soprano
    1936 Buescher Model 139 Custom Built Bare Brass Baritone
    1938 Buescher Model 127 Aristocrat (Art Deco) Tenor

    1938 Buescher Model 139 Aristocrat Gold Plated Baritone
    1947 Buescher Model B-11 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Bare Brass Tenor
    1949 Buescher Model B-7 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Silver Plated Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 140 Aristocrat (Big B) Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 156 Aristocrat (Big B) Gold Plated Tenor
    1970-something Yamaha Model YBS-61 Baritone
    2015 Vibrato A1S III Plastic Alto

    Morgan, Ishimori, Strathon, and Theo Wanna Mouthpieces.





    Nothing works so well in gathering information as a display of ignorance. I learn something new every day.


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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by maddenma View Post
    It was actually the new alto model after the TT. Introduced in 1931, they ran with split bell keys until about 1936 when the l/h bell key 135's with the same engraving came out. Those are that are fundamentally the same instrument with a different bell, neck, and spatula table. You could call that transitional, but people tend to think of it (and value it) as a distinct model because of the bell key change in the middle of the run.

    Does that mean a true series 1 alto with same side bell keys does not appear until 1936? Everything before that was split bell?

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulwl View Post
    I've seen catalogs with the Series 1 horns dated Nov-Dec. 1934!
    Ok. Dec 1934 is "about" 1936 and I've seen the ad too. That said, the earliest picture of the l/h bell 135 on Saxpics is a 273xxx horn (1936 according to the chart). Lastest split bell 135 on Saxpics is a 268xxx (late '34).

    Suffice it to say it's somewhere in there somewhere between the very end of 1934 to the beginning of 1936.

    Care to settle on 1935 as the probable year of general availability?
    1926 Buescher Model 122 True Tone Series III Gold Plated Soprano
    1936 Buescher Model 139 Custom Built Bare Brass Baritone
    1938 Buescher Model 127 Aristocrat (Art Deco) Tenor

    1938 Buescher Model 139 Aristocrat Gold Plated Baritone
    1947 Buescher Model B-11 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Bare Brass Tenor
    1949 Buescher Model B-7 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Silver Plated Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 140 Aristocrat (Big B) Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 156 Aristocrat (Big B) Gold Plated Tenor
    1970-something Yamaha Model YBS-61 Baritone
    2015 Vibrato A1S III Plastic Alto

    Morgan, Ishimori, Strathon, and Theo Wanna Mouthpieces.





    Nothing works so well in gathering information as a display of ignorance. I learn something new every day.


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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    yes,i have had a couple of altos from the 274xxx period.... and have seen the 26x,xxx new aristocrat high pitch,but nothing in between these....
    i will keep looking as this is my favorite past-time,looking for horns.....

    maddenma(actually,what does this mean),maddenma?...i always thought the "new aristocrat" came from "the buecsher"...?....as i had always thought the models before the aristocrat were a bit rough in intonation,i never focused on trading them....so,i must admit,i don't know jack-shi* about them.....so thanks for the update....

    cheers,philip
    philip from down-under
    secondhandsaxes.com.au

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhandsaxes View Post
    maddenma(actually,what does this mean),maddenma?...
    Trade secret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhandsaxes View Post
    i always thought the "new aristocrat" came from "the buecsher"...?
    Fair to say the 135 is probably derived from the 126. Certainly looks like one, but the important stuff is different.
    1926 Buescher Model 122 True Tone Series III Gold Plated Soprano
    1936 Buescher Model 139 Custom Built Bare Brass Baritone
    1938 Buescher Model 127 Aristocrat (Art Deco) Tenor

    1938 Buescher Model 139 Aristocrat Gold Plated Baritone
    1947 Buescher Model B-11 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Bare Brass Tenor
    1949 Buescher Model B-7 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Silver Plated Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 140 Aristocrat (Big B) Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 156 Aristocrat (Big B) Gold Plated Tenor
    1970-something Yamaha Model YBS-61 Baritone
    2015 Vibrato A1S III Plastic Alto

    Morgan, Ishimori, Strathon, and Theo Wanna Mouthpieces.





    Nothing works so well in gathering information as a display of ignorance. I learn something new every day.


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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    hmmmmm....secrets hey......mmmmmmm.....
    oh well,we all have them....
    hope you have a great day....
    cheers,philip
    philip from down-under
    secondhandsaxes.com.au

  19. #17
    Fan Of Pan Am badenia's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    As you all know, I am researching the Buescher subsidiary Elkhart Band Instrument Co, but in the process I have been registering Buescher instruments as well. While I largely agree with much of the above, here are my findings to date:

    1) The "New" Aristocrat engraving first appears on altos at serial 262061. The last pre or non - New Aristocrat I have so far is 261722. So there could be a serial in between.
    2) The earliest New Aristocrat Tenor I show so far is 266230, with the highest pre or non at 264311. So it's reasonable for the New Aristocrat tenor to be in the 265,000's.
    3) So far no Bari's carry the New Aristocrat engraving.
    4) The highest "New" Aristocrat so far is 267676, with the lowest Aristocrat only at 267914. So the change over is likely between those serial and therefore with in the 267,000's.
    5) At 268011, I show the G# key, 1/2 round with roller centering over the spatula, prior to that it was off-center.
    6) At 270188, I show the G# changing to a wide rectangular shape with the Buescher name on it and the bell keys generally changing from split to left side.
    7) The trademark registration for Aristocrat was registered in 1959 and only referred back to 1938. It's at around 296,000 that the old True-Tone tuning fork logo ends (coincidence?). So it's somewhat interesting that the name Aristocrat starts usage before Buescher sought to protect it.

    Best,
    Kurt

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    nvilletele's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by maddenma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Secondhandsaxes View Post
    maddenma(actually,what does this mean),maddenma?...
    Trade secret.
    Hmmm, if truly a secret, then you might wan't to edit your SxxxxCLxxD page . . . .

    (Otherwise, my guess was going to be something like "Mad Den Mother")

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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by badenia View Post
    As you all know, I am researching the Buescher subsidiary Elkhart Band Instrument Co, but in the process I have been registering Buescher instruments as well. While I largely agree with much of the above, here are my findings to date:

    1) The "New" Aristocrat engraving first appears on altos at serial 262061. The last pre or non - New Aristocrat I have so far is 261722. So there could be a serial in between.
    2) The earliest New Aristocrat Tenor I show so far is 266230, with the highest pre or non at 264311. So it's reasonable for the New Aristocrat tenor to be in the 265,000's.
    3) So far no Bari's carry the New Aristocrat engraving.
    4) The highest "New" Aristocrat so far is 267676, with the lowest Aristocrat only at 267914. So the change over is likely between those serial and therefore with in the 267,000's.
    5) At 268011, I show the G# key, 1/2 round with roller centering over the spatula, prior to that it was off-center.
    6) At 270188, I show the G# changing to a wide rectangular shape with the Buescher name on it and the bell keys generally changing from split to left side.
    7) The trademark registration for Aristocrat was registered in 1959 and only referred back to 1938. It's at around 296,000 that the old True-Tone tuning fork logo ends (coincidence?). So it's somewhat interesting that the name Aristocrat starts usage before Buescher sought to protect it.

    Best,
    Kurt
    There are New Aristocrat altos into the 269 range. The list is posted in the "New Aristocrat Registry" thread. I talked to you on eBay about the one I'm selling, which is a 268. (It has Series I engraving.) The off center G# key is not necessarily part of the design though...That's one of the adjustments that a lot of people make to NA altos.
    Current setups:
    Yamaha YSS-875EX, Rousseau NC3 (refaced by Joe Giardullo), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YAS-875EXS, Rousseau RC4 (refaced by Brian Powell), Ishimori lig,Hemke 3.5
    Yamaha YTS-875EX, Rousseau NC4, Ishimori lig, Hemke 3.5
    Unison Black Nickel Bari, Rousseau NC4, BG Tradition lig, Hemke 3.5

  22. #20
    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: split bell aristocrat alto?

    Quote Originally Posted by nvilletele View Post
    Hmmm, if truly a secret, then you might wan't to edit your SxxxxCLxxD page . . . .

    (Otherwise, my guess was going to be something like "Mad Den Mother")
    Wow. Haven't updated that site in years. Fortunately, I've never claimed to be James Carter....

    I'd only been playing again for a bit over a year after a 25-year hiatus. Some of this is pretty awful. I should at least change the picture, eh?


    Now, back to the original thread, Badenia, this info should probably get in to PaulWL's thread on the NA registry.
    1926 Buescher Model 122 True Tone Series III Gold Plated Soprano
    1936 Buescher Model 139 Custom Built Bare Brass Baritone
    1938 Buescher Model 127 Aristocrat (Art Deco) Tenor

    1938 Buescher Model 139 Aristocrat Gold Plated Baritone
    1947 Buescher Model B-11 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Bare Brass Tenor
    1949 Buescher Model B-7 400 (Top Hat & Cane) Silver Plated Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 140 Aristocrat (Big B) Alto
    1949 Buescher Model 156 Aristocrat (Big B) Gold Plated Tenor
    1970-something Yamaha Model YBS-61 Baritone
    2015 Vibrato A1S III Plastic Alto

    Morgan, Ishimori, Strathon, and Theo Wanna Mouthpieces.





    Nothing works so well in gathering information as a display of ignorance. I learn something new every day.


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