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Tenor Madness Early Babbitt II

27K views 76 replies 31 participants last post by  chris23086 
#1 ·
#42 ·
Hey Drew, I just ordered one on EBay.
Can wait to check it out....
Maybe you can pick me out a good one! :)
(edit)
(Not that there are any bad ones!!!! you know what I mean.)
Reading through this thread after posting...I guess you have to watch what you say around here....)
-P. Hannah
 
#7 ·
I'm pretty confused by the description. They're trying to say that pre-molded blanks are better than pure bar stock? That's simply not true, and any mouthpiece maker worth his salt can tell you that.

"In our experience, mouthpieces made from molded and baked hard rubber have a unique character that you don't find in those made from bar stock. Each one comes out of the oven with its own personality."

LOL!

I read that as: "Molded blanks have a lower quality rubber and cheaper process, so that's why we're making them this way. Each mouthpiece will have a bigger spec variance, so there won't be much consistency between each mouthpiece, and they'll play differently as a result."

They follow up with this: "The tonal color varies, though they are generally just on the brighter side of neutral."

Of course it varies; you can't guarantee any kind of bore or chamber consistency with how it's made.

It's a good thing there's some hand finishing involved; at least the rails and tip will hopefully come close (although they look a little thick for my tastes.) Same can't be said for chamber, bore, baffle, beak, and body measurements.

I'm sorry, but at least advertise it with some truth and not smoke and mirrors. Pure rubber bar stock is denser and of higher quality than molded blanks; this has always been the case. However, rubber bar rod stock is a much more expensive material, and the machining itself is very expensive, hence it cuts into the makers profits, which is why most don't do it that way. Molded blanks use lower quality rubber, are less accurate, and are cheaper to produce. Pure rubber bar rod stock is of higher quality, is more resonant, and much more consistent.

The mouthpiece might be great, and I hope it plays great. But I've lost some respect for Tenor Madness trying to advertise something that isn't true. If they said "We're using molded blanks because it's more cost effective and we think it still sounds great" then THAT'S FINE. But don't say "molded blanks have a personality and a unique character you won't find in bar rod stock."

"Don't buy gold jewelry; buy plated jewelry because it is unique and has a personality." :faceinpalm:

- Saxaholic
 
#8 ·
I'm pretty confused by the description. They're trying to say that pre-molded blanks are better than pure bar stock? That's simply not true, and any mouthpiece maker worth his salt can tell you that...

blah, blah, blah...

Pure rubber bar rod stock is of higher quality, is more resonant, and much more consistent.

(etc, ad nauseum)
You forgot to say "In my humble opinion."
 
#9 ·
I may or may not be "Worth my salt" but I do make mouthpieces. I have for over a decade. I don't buy into with the TM statement about the unique character of baked hard rubber. I do agree each hand worked piece will have its own personality. I do not believe the characterization of rod being superior is accurate either.

This is a really smoke an mirrors way of reopening the forever old, worn out, obsessed upon, and never resolved question of material vs. design.

We can argue this all day and never say anything worth hearing.

What we can say as a fact is that how a mouthpiece is designed has a profound impact upon the sound it creates.
How well a mouthpiece is executed has an equally profound impact.

The rest is just a mix of guesswork, hype and conjecture. They are arguments typically put forward to sell something, push an agenda, or simply to grandstand.

My advice: Don't buy into equipment evangelism. Find a quality product you like and play it. It is really that simple....the rest is just noise.
 
#10 ·
Some interesting points all around. We've had 4 years to work on this thing and we've gone down a few different roads and tried a variety of methods for making these. At the end of the day, the only way we were able to get the sound and character we wanted was with molded/vulcanized rubber. So when we say "in our experience," we mean exactly that.
 
#11 ·
So you had mouthpieces made with pure hard rubber bar stock and CNC machined then hand finished by your guy but couldn't get the sound you wanted?

Was it too resonant? Too rich sounding? Too complex of a sound? Were the dimensions too accurate?


You say in your description that the tone color varies. So...how exactly is it "the sound you wanted" when you claim the sound is different for each individual piece?

- Saxaholic
 
#12 ·
So you had mouthpieces made with pure hard rubber bar stock and CNC machined then hand finished by your guy but couldn't get the sound you wanted?

Was it too resonant? Too rich sounding? Too complex of a sound? Were the dimensions too accurate?
What's the difference between hard rubber that is molded and cured, and hard rubber that was formed into a bar? Are they not both formed by similar processes? How different can they be?

Density? Durometer?

How "perfect" must a mouthpiece be to sound great? My favorite mouthpieces were all hand finished in the interior, as well as the usual critical parameters. I don't agree with your bulldoggedness about having to use CNC.
 
#13 ·
In the end the music is what matters.
I also know Randy has been working at this project a really long time.
Best of luck with the piece.

...again my position is that the means of production is of little consequence as long as it is made well and sounds great.

Does a great song sound better or worse if you happen to know what key it is in?
Does a symphony written in ink sound better than one done on scratch paper with a pencil?

Why on earth does anyone care?
I wanna hear the music.
 
#22 ·
I do not threaten people, ever. That was some good natured advice.

If you care to know, do some research. Drew stated TMs opinions (gracefully, I might add, well done Drew) and they differ from my own and that of serious mouthpiece professionals whom I've spoken with.

I will agree to disagree. I hope the mouthpieces play great, and I mean that with the utmost sincerity.

- Saxaholic
 
#23 ·
There are absolutely no facts to suggest one means of production is superior to another. CNC bar is more repeatable but not always better. There are great pieces made both ways. We know the modern pieces that use bar. I don't think they are necessarily better than those using molded material.

Molded pieces

Yes mine so let's be transparent
Morgan
Lamberson
RPC
Ted klum
Every vintage link
Vintage Meyers
Brilharts
Drake
Selmer
More...

The list goes on, molded has and is the industry standard. Bar is adopted because it is fast, it is repeatable in the right hands and instead it is actually cheaper when you figure time and the skill it takes to start from a more raw form into the mix. For a bar piece to be great you need a very good machinists and precise final hand work. For a blank to be great you need an experienced craftsman.

There is no better or superior here. They are means to an end. And again the science does not support your position. It does not deny it either. You simply cannot quantify that you like somthing. If you like bar pieces cool. Randy says he likes molded hand made pieces...equally cool. There is no real argument here.

Both are a means to an end that really is not an end. The mouthpiece is the beginning. The end Is the music. The rest are just tools. Is a repair job on my car better if it is done with snap-on tools than it is with craftsman tools? I just care that my car drives like it should.
 
#24 ·
So do I understand this correctly? If a hard rubber mouthpiece is made from a mold, it results in an inferior rubber quality? Or did I miss something? I think the folks at Morgan mouthpieces would disagree about the quality of a mouthpiece made from a mold.
 
#25 ·
https://clarkwfobes.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/molded-mouthpieces-vs-rod-rubber-mouthpieces/

An interesting read for sure from a true experienced mouthpiece maker. Keep in mind he sells molded mouthpieces, but considering that, I think the article is informative and fairly transparent.

His concerns about molded mouthpieces mirror what I have stated. Inconsistent results, including bore, bore walls, etc that he has to fix by hand. His opinion ultimately is that there is a difference in sound from materials, but it is minute compared to design, which I agree with.

Phil, if you are going to state facts, please make sure they're correct. According to the article, Selmer has always produced their mouthpieces with rod rubber, as does Lamberson. I'm willing to bet others on your list did, too.

In addition, the vintage rubber even using molds is considerably more dense than todays molded rubber. That's why it is more difficult to face a vintage rubber Meyer than a modern one. As a refacer you should know that. The closest we have to the vintage rubber is bar stock.

Also, to suggest using molded rubber as a cheaper method is laughable. The machining on rod rubber is very expensive. I'm sure pricing on materials fluctuate. But it is more expensive to produce from pure rod rubber simply due to machining costs, not even counting material.

I'll leave the trolls to their grumbling.

- Saxaholic
 
#26 ·
Selmer and Vandoren pieces are made from a hard rubber block.
Selmer has videos of their mouthpieces manufacturing on their YouTube channel.

I bet it was the same for vintage Soloist/Air Flow... but not 100% sure.

Resin François Louis are molded (actually they are two parts "welded" together... exactly like old silver FL's).
 
#27 ·
Older hard rubber is harder than current hard rubber by a very small amount and this is because the FACT is that hard rubber gets harder over long periods of time.

Also, lets stop the pure dogma.

Forbes uses the word "My assessment" he does not claim it to be scientific fact.

There is nothing difficult about refacing old hard rubber. Frankly, vintage hard rubber is easier to work with than vintage. Every mpc guy I know finds it a treat.

As for repeatability, its all great as long as you are not repeating your mistakes.

This is about the dumbest thread ever and Id be fuming if I were Randy. He is just trying to announce his product and he is being attacked based on a hidden agenda that is not so hidden.

There is nothing honorable,attractive or intellectual in being simply mean spirited.
 
#29 ·
This is about the dumbest thread ever and Id be fuming if I were Randy. He is just trying to announce his product and he is being attacked based on a hidden agenda that is not so hidden.
All vendors are subject to intelligent debate when they make various claims. There is no agenda, but conspiracy theorists will always want to create unnecessary and untrue drama.

- Saxaholic
 
#28 ·
Its seems odd at best that someone selling mouthpieces today would point out that they are inconsistent and try to play it off as meaning they have "character." JJ Babbitt is not exactly know for artisan level finishing work; material aside. The design of a mouthpiece imparts character not sub-par quality control. I wouldn't waste my money on a piece finished by Babbitt. There are way too many options that support more serious craftsman/women.

Who cares what its made of? The company is telling you they are not up to modern quality standards.
 
#36 ·
That's not at all what they are saying. And I'm pretty sure the pieces are hand finished by James Bunte. If it's anything like his Model 42 pieces (Babbitt blank and hand finished) these will be killer mouthpieces.

Man, read the thread again. I think YOU are creating the drama here
+1!

conspiracy theorists will always want to create unnecessary and untrue drama
I read that as: "Molded blanks have a lower quality rubber and cheaper process, so that's why we're making them this way. Each mouthpiece will have a bigger spec variance, so there won't be much consistency between each mouthpiece, and they'll play differently as a result."
Oh the irony!

Pure rubber bar stock is denser
Maybe that's one of the reasons why they chose molding as opposed to machining. Material density will affect how a mouthpiece vibrates and the feedback it creates through teeth and skull. Feedback behind the horn plays a critical role in how you make your equipment sound in front.

Using more expensive manufacturing techniques, materials and tighter tolerances isn't necessarily always better.
 
#31 ·
I had sworn off of posting here, but I have known Randy for many years and here I am... First, if these were car tires and consumer safety were involved and no one could test before buying, I could understand the debate. But......Randy is offering a trial period, no one is going to lose his life because of faulty rubber, and I have never seen any mouthpiece that did not vary from piece to piece (a bit). Randy is hardly a hard sell marketer and the statements made are hardly controversial. But in the end, you can order a piece and blow it and decide for yourself. And...it comes from a very reputable dealer and a great guy. I am positive these pieces will play well. They may not be your cup of tea, but they will do what Randy and Drew want them to do. If anything, Randy suffers from a condition of over attention to detail that goes by several names. He does not "over market". Just like Phil and others here, he is caught up in a love and obsession with the saxophone that drives him to produce his work. We are lucky to have guys like that in the saxophonists orbit.
 
#34 ·
Maybe a little balance and perspective is needed.
It's a mouthpiece, no one is going to die.
It doesn't really matter if you can play your butt off, I'm sure Joe Lovano doesn't worry about this stuff. Or Mark Turner, or Jerry Bergonzi or.......
I used to get worked up about all kinds of stuff, but for those who are struggling right now, here's a product you may enjoy which can help you put your pure bar stock or molded (or is it mould....) whatever in perspective......
It costs less than a great mouthpiece.

https://www.headspace.com
 
#37 ·
TM Drew story ....

I once asked Drew to pick an alto piece for me to go with a sax that I also bought from TM.

I liked it so much that I asked him to find another one just like it for a backup.

He wouldn't sell me another piece because he couldn't find one that played like the one I had ..

So ... Not exactly the hard sell. They are more about their customers than making a quick buck ...

Ryan
 
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