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Big Band Bass Sax

11K views 47 replies 16 participants last post by  wesbrow 
#1 ·
So, I took the new bass sax to my rehearsal band last night. I played it on some of the slower moving ballads instead of baritone.

The bass sax really has a "presence" that the bari doesn't - and I was playing the same notes. I don't think it's just about loudness either, as this is apparent even at low dynamic levels. And while I've been playing primarily baritone for 30 years, I've been playing bass sax for 6 weeks now, and I don't think I've got the setup nailed yet, and I'm still working on tone and control. So it seems like the "bass-ness" of the bass sax overcomes some of my current deficiencies in being able to play it.

I had theorized for years that the bass role that the baritone often plays in the sax section, might be better served by using an actual bass instrument rather than the bari sax. On this extremely limited experience I may have been right.

Of course, I now have a "low A" (actually a low concert C, low D on the big boy). I did not run into any cases where the line wanted to go on down to "G" (concert Bb) but I am looking forward to being able to play those kinds of lines along with the bass trombone, rather than having to break the line at low A or low Bb (concert C or Db).

Has anyone else used bass sax to play baritone sax parts and what was your experience?
 
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#6 ·
Wouldn't it be the same as using tenor to play alto parts - a real transposing headache ?
The transposition is the same as the alto flute transposition, play notes a fourth up from what's written. I play quite a bit of alto flute (often playing violin parts, so I have the low G same as violin) so I'm familiar with this. Anyway, I did not use the bass for any fast moving charts with complex lines, only for slower pieces where I would be able to keep up with the transposition.
 
#7 ·
Noblet bass (made by Beaugnier), keyed to high F (short wrap French style)

King "B" baritone mouthpiece, that I opened up to about 0.090" some years ago for baritone work, and recently increased the facing length to 27-28 mm for bass sax application.

La Voz Med. Bari reeds.
 
#4 ·
Bass Sax was used instead of Bari Sax, from the 19teens into the 1930s. Became much more rare to be used in the sax section of a Big Band from thec1940s on. World War 2 was likeky a big contributor to that , as well as the Great Depression slowing its use befor The War.
 
#5 ·
The bass sax I've heard in '20s and '30s bands doesn't sound to me like part of the sax section so much as a distinct bass voice. It is indeed a heftier tone that's going to pull out of the blend. I guess, somewhat obviously ... where the sound with the bari is really good, then likely it won't be so good with the bass. On the other hand if it's filling in a bass line where the bari was a little under-powered, then that will sound great.
 
#31 ·
The bass sax I've heard in '20s and '30s bands doesn't sound to me like part of the sax section so much as a distinct bass voice. It is indeed a heftier tone that's going to pull out of the blend.
Usually, when bass sax was used, it was a rhythm instrument with a solo option.

There was one experiment in the early 30s by the Bert Lown Orchestra, a "pre big band" with 3 brass, 3 reeds plus Adrian Rollini, the pioneering bass sax soloist. Adrian would solo, boost up the sax or brass sections at various parts of the arrangement, and sometimes phrase with the tuba on breaks or fills. Not every player could do this "floater" role as Adrian was capable of great delicacy as well as power on the horn.

Lown then got rid of the tuba in favor of a second bass saxist, Spencer Clark, who played rhythm only. The 2-bass sax idea didn't last long as Lown got out of the band business.
 
#10 ·
Lawerence Welk's band had a regular bass player early on in the TV show, Bill Page, all around fine sax player who doubled
Actually bass sax was mostly used as a bass line instrument in the hey day of the 20s and late teens
Sometime the tuba player even doubled on bass sax (and string bass) rather than a sax section player.
 
#11 ·
In my opinion the role of both instruments was originally a different one than it is nowadays.

When bass and baritones coexisted in large bands, the bass generally played the same function of the tuba ( with more articulation and definition in quick passages than the average tuba player, generally, could achieve) while the baritone had a more melodic function which was carried on until Gerry Mulligan came out the musical scene, but then, the baritone seem to be absorbed into the role which the bass had had before ( and indeed to do that it needed the low A which was not that necessary when it was more of a melodic instrument).

Of course the bass can be used to play the role of the baritone but, which role really?

If you mean that the bass can play in an orchestra the same function that a modern baritone does in a big band, certainly, but, despite the many attempts to make the bass a true melodic instrument, I don't think, despite the examples of the likes of Adrian Rollini, that you could have a band based around a bass soloist the same way that it could around a baritone soloist.

So let me clarify, a band can certainly have the occasional bass or even contrabass solo or play and entire piece completely based on these instruments but cannot feature a bass soloist playing in the role that such as Gerry Mulligan or my favorite, Serge Chaloff, had.

Having said that in the last few years all low instruments ( bass and much lower tan that!) saw a revival of their use ( and in some case there was the birth of new instruments such as the tubax and all the super low Brazilian saxophones which never existed before) why that is, it is not very clear to me (I've put this question to the people around here many times before).

you do have some pretty funny things like this, gimmicks, really :) nobody in his right mind would buy a CD with 20 numbers played on the sub contrabass.



This is another planet... you can play this on a bass, but not as lyrically as this

 
#12 ·
Well, I don't know about that. I guess I personally would choose bari for a melodic voice like that, like most would. But it's the same algebra for bari vs. tenor, isn't it? and if we had as few bari sax players as we currently have bass sax players, then there'd be no Serge Chaloff and one might be tempted to say "sorry, no such thing can happen, you should consider playing tenor if that's your bag."

That isn't to say I hear that in the bass saxophone, exactly, but look at it this way, can it have less potential as a solo instrument than the bowed double bass?
 
#13 ·
Bass sax is as low as I would dare to go for a solo instrument. The notes can still be heard, and it's a unique timbre.
 
#15 ·
That double sub contra though, when he was on the low end, the sound waves were so wide, it wasn't even enjoyable to listen to!
 
#17 ·
That first one was really cool! Except for the "black face"! Much high standards in performance and musicianship then!
 
#18 ·
as you noticed the kitkat rascals were playing live. You can distinctly heare the sound difference as they move around in front of the single overhead mike
All memorized and live! It's a shame there are no surviving films of the brown brothers. But this is in a similar vaudeville tradition although a couple of decades later.
Though these guys were probably much better players from what i can compare from the original old Brown Brother recordings.
 
#20 ·
I had theorized for years that the bass role that the baritone often plays in the sax section, might be better served by using an actual bass instrument rather than the bari sax. On this extremely limited experience I may have been right.
I'm not sure what you mean by "better served." My opinion is that in this context, the musical utility of the instrument is a less important question than that of the expense and availability of the horn.
 
#21 ·
the bari sax plays typically a multiple role in a sax section playing bass lines, doubling with bones, and playing with the sax section
as much as I like playing bass sax I think the bari is a better choice if one is limited to standard AATTB sax section. Of course there are times the bass would be
better (especially on period 20s music for example) but, in general, having played bari in a lot of big band settings, it is better suited all around.
However in a sax choir or larger sax ensemble the bass is a must to give a solid bottom end.
 
#23 ·
Some interesting comments here:

"The bass sax I've heard in '20s and '30s bands doesn't sound to me like part of the sax section so much as a distinct bass voice"..."When bass and baritones coexisted in large bands, the bass generally played the same function of the tuba"...

Yes, of course, the bass sax can play the some role that the string bass now plays in a big band. But so far (limited time) I have played the bass sax in a semi-trad setting, where we play some trad pieces (in two) and some swing pieces (in four), and I find it very difficult to make a walking bass line sound right on the bass sax. Two beat bass parts sound great, much like a tuba. But I was specifically referring to a modern big band setting, with a 5 piece sax section.

"I don’t think, despite the examples of the likes of Adrian Rollini, that you could have a band based around a bass soloist the same way that it could around a baritone soloist."

I was referring to section work only, for any serious soloing I would plan to pick up the baritone.

"the bari sax plays typically a multiple role in a sax section playing bass lines, doubling with bones, and playing with the sax section
as much as I like playing bass sax I think the bari is a better choice if one is limited to standard AATTB sax section..."

Why do you feel this? Are you considering the case of completely replacing the baritone with bass sax? In that case I think there would be a lot of charts that would not sound as good, because a lot of them are written with the baritone specifically used for its own particular characteristics. But, if one has both on hand, I think there are a number of slow moving charts, where the bass sax would work better than baritone. Also, I often see a line (often doubling bass bone) where the baritone line breaks at low A or Bb, whereas the bone can continue down to low G (concert Bb).

Unfortunately, I don't have good arranging skills, but I wonder what a band with SATBBs section rather than AATTB would sound like.
 
#25 ·
listen to Kenton Johnny Richard arrangements which include a bass sax

[In 1960 Kenton also has the instrumentation of the sax section changed to alto/tenor/tenor/bari/bari or bass saxophone creating a much more robust lower end to the band. The sax section make-up would stay the same until the band disbanded after Kenton's passing in the late 1970s (mellophoniums were discarded by the middle 1960s). The trombone section is also transformed to have tuba anchoring the brass. The first Kenton mellophonium band was a far more symphonic sounding group than earlier versions or periods of the Kenton orchestra. The initial September 1960 sessions function to work through the orchestration and sonic problems presented by such a wide variety and number of instruments being recorded live in the studio.
 
#36 ·
These are great charts! I have them and they are a blast to play. They will be available from eJazzlines in the near future (hopefully). Spencer Clark did an album with a bass sax lead. Several tracks also have two altos and two tenors filling out the sax section. There are several tracks out there with Charlie Ventura soloing on bass. In the right hands and with the right arrangements, I think the bass is capable of playing just about anything.
 
#27 ·
When it comes down to making a good string bass, or a good tuba for that matter, of course the ideal thing is a string bass, or a tuba. I suppose the brief popularity of the bass sax in a similar role may have had something to do with the technology at the time. Its more strident tone helped it record better than tuba, on '20s equipment, and it was louder acoustically than the double bass.
 
#28 ·
I love playing bass but being objective the bass does not have the projection and is too thin in the higher register to blend in a section like a bari.
Athough I use an old conn original MP set up and enjoy the original fat spread sound of the bass.
One can use a bari mouthpiece and put more edge and center on the bass - but I do not like this sound.

Also a lot of section work has demanding passages that would not lend themselves to bass like a bari.
Ideally the bari player could schlepp both bass and bari to the gig (lots of work) and then pick a few charts that sound better on bass
But this is not practical IMO
 
#29 ·
Lots of responses here about how there aren't enough bass sax players, or it's too heavy to carry about, or the transposition is hard, or it wouldn't be a good choice for a small group as a solo instrument, or telling me that way back in the 20s groups used it as a bass line instrument.

Obviously there is at least one person willing to schlep the big boy around and do the transposition (that would be me).

Has anyone beside me tried this: playing baritone parts in a big band sax section on bass sax? And if so, what was your experience?
 
#30 ·
No expert here, but have you checked out Harry Gold (d. 2005)? He was big in the UK trad scene, and kept the bass sax in the limelight for decades. No idea if he was 'acting up' to the bari parts, but he was impeccably educated musically (so certainly knew how to arrange), and crafted a real musical role for the bass sax in a trad context, beyond the kitchen-sink oompah.
 
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