I'm about to become a hopefully proud owner of one of these, and other that "it's a Keilwerth stencil" don't know much about them at all.
Yes it was a GAS attack but I have never owned a baritone, and, am on a strict budget. (So, why did I buy it at all?...) EBay deal, I hope. There seems to be alot of Conn 60s and 70s (eeek?!) baris out there but wasn't convinced by their condition (beat and rebeat) and that post 70s Conn is a quality concern.
Any sense of build quality, sound quality, playability, overall value thing?
I'll find out soon enuf,, but thought I'd check with the King crowd.
I had one for a while.
It had a nice full sound and was reasonably mouthpiece friendly.
Ergonomics are OK and pretty modern feeling, except for Bis key touch, which felt too far away from B touch-piece.
Mine had octave key problems that drove me nuts, I think it was related to inappropriate spring guages.
Overall it played quite well and had a nice tone to it though.
P.S. I hope you got a case with it, I couldn't find a replacement case for mine anywhere so had to use a gig bag.
That looks like the mod I did for mine and the one on my 12M.
Finding a case is difficult because of the large bell size but it might be possible to modify a modern case to suit.
I don't know how to judge build quality except that nothing fell of of mine while I had it.
I played a '74 Couf Superba baritone (another Keilwerth stencil of the era) for a time and loved it. Nice dark tone and excellent keywork, very sturdy and well-built.
I was just gifted a Metalite 9M so should be a nice combination. Reed suggestions anyone for the newbie Bari player? I bought a Van Doren ZZ 3, just on impulse...thoughts?
This is from the 60s I'm told. Here it is ...cross fingers for me~! It may be original laq..its just ugly enough, fwiw.
I mostly used a Strathon adjustatone 8 on mine with Hemke 3 reed.
But my Berg 120/2 suited it well also.
In some ways I regret moving it on, but the trouble I was having with the octave mechanism drove me nuts.
I traded it along with a tenor for a YBS 61 and some cash.
The 61 is a great baritone though and feels nice under the fingers.
Diagnosis: in absence of any bent tubing, bent keys or anything "off" in the mechanism... it looks like someone removed the receiver collar and put it back in the wrong spot. Crazy. Its relaq'd so maybe they took it apart to do that ....but, but, ...but...
Plus lots of flaky repairs and key heights, missing corks, etc. but nothing terminal!
So far, very shaky and rough but basically a nice sounding horn, as far as i can tell.
Made the mistake of trying it (my first ever bari) with a Metalite M9 and a ZZ 3 reed. (I won't be playing classical with it!)
I took the shaver to that and its coming along.
While an assembly error would be the least disastrous way to get there, it doesn't seem like the most likely. Hope the body didn't get bent in shipping!
No damage in shipping and all looks very straight and true and non distorted.
yes bizarre, but no other explanation that I can see. I want to find some other cause/solution but don't see one. Perhaps the repair tech will, but with nothing bent/twisted or otherwise 'out'...we'll see
Check the posts and rod that the octave pad is on. It is more likely that the posts are off a bit than to have the crook area twist. Does the outside of the receiver show a new solder line?
Latenight-- thank you for that. wow, who knew. It does seem kind of flimsy overall as well.
BruceB-- Your absolutely right. I will look with a keen eye one last time. Even I can't believe my diagnosis explanation but the posts and rod look perfect. Outside of receiver doesnt show a new solder line but wouldnt that possibly been covered up by the relaq? of course you ask, who would play it like this for decades?
In the second photo you can see most of the bow / yoke type brace which also looks about right. But am starting to think it more like a simple but subtle hit to the bow that caused it to relocate inward....?
Im really puzzled and bringing it somewhere today to get an expert opinion and will let you know
Just coming back to this to all who might be interested
It ends up that the pip is not on the collar/receiver such that rotating it would fix it or be the cause. Two repair people looked at it and neither could really identify a cause as to how this happened. Amazing. There is no visual evidence of damage but it certainly is damaged / distorted as you can see.
We had to create a sort of klugy fix to extend the reach of the octave key to hit the pip opening. It works pretty well but not sure for how long. Lots of other issues with this "play condition" horn, that I was able to address. The good news is the seller has been willing to talk and work out a partial payback/refund; that's still pending but at least no stonewalling. This is the second time I've had that experience on Ebay with a damaged horn prompting a 'deal' on partial payback.
It seems pretty nice to me but I have no frame of reference, having only played a Buescher 400 for a couple of days once. Again,opinions wanted
B Flat: Yes I got a decent case with it (after I worked on a broken hinge). It seems very well made, looks great, nice designed latches, and just the interior lining has sort of been worked on and a bit shakey but not horrible. Re "modern feeling" it has the design with the low bell keys on their own rods (not sure I'm saying that right) so that helps, as I understand it.
And coincidentally, re octave mechanism, one of the springs there is tiny/thin and slides in its post hole. It was weak and I bent it to strengthen it, and all is working well now, if a bit sloppy up there. I added and changed some felts and corks etc to get it working. (play condition!?!)
Also, mine has a double arm on the low C, and uses a sort of closer arm linked to the low B to prevent it from blowing open. Ive never seen that on a horn. and yes the receiver looks shakey. Maybe even fatigued at the tightening screw brazing, but seems to work well enough.
If you have any other threads on these please let me know.
Sure enough, my fix on the displaced pip in the photos works well. My repair guy actually saluted me for it>!
It/s really a nice horn, but haven't quite found the perfect piece for it. Ergos are very good but yep, that goofy spring thing on the octave is tricky. The stock spring for the first octave key cup is extremely thin.. it does the job but now but is pretty picky. with some DIY tweaking it works well enough. Not a bari expert but I think its a great sounding horn,... but I'm soon to venture to a new Conn-stellation to inhabit... so -- Likely will be up for sale soon...stay toooned
BT
I've recently sold a Keilwerth Toneking IV, virtually the same horn. it was, by far, the best baritone that I have ever had. I sold it to a dealer from Germany, who, no doubt, would make a profit on it still.
Oddly (I have refurbed around 10 of these, they are great sellers and really amazing BigHorns for the money) the off-center pip-key problem is something which shows up on project horns of this model quite often.
IMHO, it wasn't a factory defect and neither is it the receiver being resoldered on in the wrong position, because the pip actually penetrates both the receiver AND the hole at the top of the crook tube where the receiver slips over. So that hole is a giveaway as to where the original pip location was.
I think it's more that over the years when the crook and upper bow get bent, twisted, impacted, etc it starts moving the alignment off. It ISN'T the kind of immediately necessary repair which would 'need' to be done to 'keep the horn playing'...and Baritones moreso than other horns over time get way more M*AS*H* repairs as opposed to complete and thorough ones.
As a result, things such as this pip alignment and especially bellkey alignments, and also bellbrace impactions....get repeatedly re-dinged or re-hit, and eventually the alignment is so off that the only way to really go at it is something pretty thorough (oftentimes requiring the disassembly of the upper crook in order to access all points necessary).
In these cases, I do that, and then once I have posts properly aligned, crooks untwisted and re-soldered, etc....it usually lines back up. If not, then I cut the actual key armature and re-align, then silver-solder it back.
That you were able to make a home-fix which holds is pretty good.
I picked up a late '60s Tempo off eblay, I love it, it's low Bb, and rock solid, tried a bunch of mouthpieces and settled on a Jody Jazz piece, it's an awesome sounding horn with this set up.
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