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Link Quality Issues

184K views 307 replies 110 participants last post by  larryrph78 
#1 ·
Many of you especially the mouthpiece refinishers have been saying for a long time that all stock Links can be improved. Both isaxman and Sigmund451 have raised the issue of Link quality recently. Here is my recent experience.

I have 2 Otto Link STM NY 7*'s purchased 6 weeks apart from Saxquest and they are different! The difference is greater then I would expect for process variation! The first one (Link "A" which replaced a regular STM ) has a sound I really like but I heard the siren call of an even better piece. I will not part with Link "A" so I ordered a second one (Link"B") hoping! it would be equally as good. It could then be sent to MoJo for analysis and see what he recommends to improve it?

Link "A" has no baffle and a nice smooth floor from tip to bore. . Link "B" has a flat baffle extending out from the tip about ¼ inch before angling to the unfinished floor. At first I was thinking this was intentional, but it just may be sloppy finishing. It looks like it was hit with a grinder at the wrong angle giving it the effect of a short baffle. The suppliers have been constantly out of the popular sizes recently so the factory has likely been under some pressure for quantity which ALWAYS sacrifices quality.

Link "B" has wider rails and from the shank looks like it came from a different mold, but is the same basic design. I have been A-B…ing the two for 5 days. Link "B" does appear to sound brighter and harsher to my ear. I am being very picky here! Just changing rooms makes a much greater difference.

I cannot envision an easier blowing piece or a sound closer to what I am looking for then Link"A" I played Link "A" with a FL lig. for several days including church, concert band, and some jazz and have since switched back to the stock lig.. I thought the FL gave a slightly richer sound! but it was imparting a slightly breathy buzz that is not present with the stock lig. I ran a number of different reeds, but that's another story.

The FL now resides on my Soprano on a HR Otto Link 6* and shows promise of an easier blow and clearer tone.!
 
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#77 ·
I tried a metal Link on Soprano and it was awful so I stuck with the HR Link. If I wanted a metal Link for Bari to replace the Berg what would you have to do?
 
#78 · (Edited)
#79 ·
mountainman said:
I will be impressed if any small shop can produce an easier blowing more harmonically colorful MPC then my great NY Link.
e!
And that's exactly what I do. The NY, Hollywood, and Jazz model are everything a Link is and more. I got very lucky so when you're ready to spend the money and if you don't mind waiting just let me know. Phil
 
#81 ·
A friend of mine just got a Link 9* for bari, and it doesn't sound dull to me. It actually sounds quite rich and full, with a massive, fat sound, but just enough edge that it can cut a little bit.

Phil, if you don't like Links for bari, then which pieces (aside from your own) do you consider to be high quality bari mouthpieces? Is your criteria different from tenor?
 
#82 ·
mountainman said:
If Babbitt uses a little fixturing and a cylindrical grinder there is no reason why the table should not be perfectly flat and the facing curve uniform from side to side and perfect every time! If they use a fixture, a milling machine, and quality control; OR a CNC machine there is no reason why the baffle and throat leading to the bore should not be consistent. Automation cuts costs.
Doc tried to tell you why a few pages up. The metal heats up and expands, the table is cut flat, the metal cools and contracts more in the middle of the table. Plus, there can be small problems with the fixture (slop) , mill (slop, wear), and QC.
 
#83 ·
dirty said:
A friend of mine just got a Link 9* for bari, and it doesn't sound dull to me. It actually sounds quite rich and full, with a massive, fat sound, but just enough edge that it can cut a little bit.

Phil, if you don't like Links for bari, then which pieces (aside from your own) do you consider to be high quality bari mouthpieces? Is your criteria different from tenor?
The original fat rubber Links were actually quite good but liitle does everyone know that they were actually made by Chedeville in France and I used them as a base mouthpiece for my metal Hollywood model. If you like a sound more like later Mulligan, Serge Chaloff, or Joe Temperley then metal Links are okay but for real power they don't make it. I mean, it's all relative and it depends on what you're comparing it to. My bari mouthpieces will knock a wall down but some guys don't want that, they's prefer a piece that they can play hard without it getting brighter. Phil

P.S. Regarding your question about what I think is available. I think it's a very sad period for mouthpieces in general otherwise there wouldn't be so many tweakers out there.
 
#87 ·
I repeat! There is no need for the gross variation in the 2 NY Links that I have. I worked for 30 years taking products from 1 of a kind prototypes through every level of fixturing up to 5000 parts per hour while holding machined tolorences of +- .0001. It would take minimal fixturing to eliminate the variation I see here and would not make the cost greater!

That said I think we WILL make these two Links equivelent soundwise and PERHAPS improve upon their sound! I have not had a playability issue! Perhaps there is something better out there?

ALSO I got a look at the inside of a BARONE on Ebay and it looks to me to be unique! The only way to make a piece superior harmonicaly to a Link is to do something different?
 
#88 · (Edited)
mountainman - Obviously you have vast experience in machining and quality control, but perhaps what you're missing here is that a company of the size of a JJ Babbitt doesn't have the profit margin to invest in the re-tooling required to bring their tolerances up to the standards you describe. Have you visited their website? They have a 'virtual plant tour' of their facility. http://www.jjbabbitt.com/tour.htm I'd be interested to hear your impression of what you see. And am I to understand that you're looking into producing mpcs yourself? Is that the direction you're heading? Or did I mis-read your previous comment?

Phil - I have the utmost respect for your opinion and your work, but I have to disagree with your statement about this being a 'sad period for mouthpieces' based on the number of tweakers out there. There have always been tweakers out there. Whether or not there are 'more' now is purely subjective, and not something we can measure, although I admit it would seem to be the case. But why? I think it's more due to the availability of information, thanks in large part to the www and forums like this, where kind-hearted souls such as yourself, Doc Tenney, the late Jon Van Wie, and others have shared your knowledge. Mojobari is the classic example.
 
#89 ·
hershel said:
Phil, some years ago you worked on an STM of mine. I like the piece very much but you made the table so thin that I worry a slight ding will break it. Is there any way it can be reinforced?
I couldn't have made the table thin unless I took it down. I couldn't have done that because it would have altered the other dimensions too much. But if it's been good all this time it should remain okay. Just don't drop it. Phil
 
#90 ·
mountainman said:
I repeat! There is no need for the gross variation in the 2 NY Links that I have. I worked for 30 years taking products from 1 of a kind prototypes through every level of fixturing up to 5000 parts per hour while holding machined tolorences of +- .0001. It would take minimal fixturing to eliminate the variation I see here and would not make the cost greater!

That said I think we WILL make these two Links equivelent soundwise and PERHAPS improve upon their sound! I have not had a playability issue! Perhaps there is something better out there?

ALSO I got a look at the inside of a BARONE on Ebay and it looks to me to be unique! The only way to make a piece superior harmonicaly to a Link is to do something different?
Steve, I hear you loud and clear but there is a reason, money. To properly CNC a mouthpiece you need at least a forth axis and a fifth would be best. It just doesn't leave any profit, believe me, I did it. As for my mouthpieces being different from Links, well, I used a Tonemaster to make the mold for my NT model, a NY Super Tonemaster for my Jazz model and a Charlie Ventura Dukoff for the Hollywood. The CV was a copy of a Link. No, we don't need a different design, we need an improvement over a Link which is what I'm told these three models are. So when you're ready and you want a Link with more volume and less resistance, try to find one of these but don't expect to spent $150.00 like your Link. Phil
 
#91 ·
Moutainman,

I am not trying to be flip or dis-respectful, but have you contacted Babbitt and offered to use your experience to help them? Could you work for them on a consultant basis? I got the impression that you may be retired now???

Maybe one of us should secrectly mail them a copy of this thread! LOL!

(I gotta learn how to use those little smilie face things)
 
#92 ·
Phil I absolutely will try one of your Jazz models AND I intend to work with MoJo to make Link B the same as Link A, maybe better, and yes Super20 I do intend to contact Babbitt as the supplier will not even acknowledge my E-mails. We are not talking tenths here or even thousands. These two peices have a baffle or floor that is off by 10's of thousands. This is NOT manufacturing variation. This is a screwup!!

The time has come for me to stop talking and act!!
 
#93 ·
mountainman said:
Phil I absolutely will try one of your Jazz models AND I intend to work with MoJo to make Link B the same as Link A, maybe better, and yes Super20 I do intend to contact Babbitt as the supplier will not even acknowledge my E-mails. We are not talking tenths here or even thousands. These two peices have a baffle or floor that is off by 10's of thousands. This is NOT manufacturing variation. This is a screwup!!

The time has come for me to stop talking and act!!
Well, as long as people buy them they'll keep making them. If I was taking orders now I'd still blow away your primary Link but unfortunately I have more than I can handle. Try to find one. :)
 
#94 ·
PhilBarone said:
I think it's a very sad period for mouthpieces in general otherwise there wouldn't be so many tweakers out there.
Phil, you are not taking orders, Theo is not taking orders, Jon Van Wie is no longer with us, and the manufacturing varies so much that a great number of the same model piece must be tried before a really good one is found. So I'd have to agree.

As regards bari pieces, the Yanagisawa hard rubber pieces are really good in terms of an all around, versatile mouthpiece.

You have to try to beat the system these days and the only way to do that is to use WWBW's trial policy until you find a real keeper. Or land a really great deal on a used piece. I've done both and couldn't be happier... it does take a lot of time and patience, though, another thing that is in a sad state these days.

Phil, exactly how back-ordered are you? Is that even with your hard rubber pieces such as the vintage?
 
#95 ·
Razzy said:
Phil, you are not taking orders, Theo is not taking orders, Jon Van Wie is no longer with us, and the manufacturing varies so much that a great number of the same model piece must be tried before a really good one is found. So I'd have to agree.
With mine, while they do play slightly different, they all play great and if you took five of them home with similar facings you get them all to match within an hour or a day at the most.

Razzy said:
Phil, exactly how back-ordered are you? Is that even with your hard rubber pieces such as the vintage?
I'm back-ordered about 3-5 months so I just don't take any more orders. The hard rubber pieces are always available though. I gotta stop posting to this thread, it's becoming like the Phil show. Phil
 
#96 ·
Phil, you mentioned Sonny playing at the Village Vanguard. Was that on his berg, or a link? And also, do you know what what set up he was playing on Saxophone Colossus? IMO, he sounds the best on that CD. Although, I haven't heard much recent stuff from him. But I'm changing that by going and seeing him this June in Toronto.

Rubel
 
#98 ·
I definately agree! He sounds MUCH better on the links! Though I think he sounds a lot better on Saxophone Colossus. His approach to "You Don't Know What Love Is" keeps me constantly inspired to achieve a better sound. As soon as I save up some more money, I'm definately going to buy a New York model from you.

Rubel
 
#99 ·
Phil
Does your conclusions on which mpcs suck and not go for HR as well as metal? Is there a reason you're only producing one HR mpc?

Do you think metal is ultimately better, in the ways you have described?

I might be looking for a HR mpc, and I tried some Links the other day, but I personally didn't like any of them. Maybe because of the tendancy this threads title describes. You say that your HR mpcs are available now, and I find the price very reasonable - are your HR mpcs as good as the metal ones?

Have you looked at any Pillinger mpcs? Any thoughts?
 
#100 ·
stonescar said:
Phil
Does your conclusions on which mpcs suck and not go for HR as well as metal? Is there a reason you're only producing one HR mpc?

Do you think metal is ultimately better, in the ways you have described?

I might be looking for a HR mpc, and I tried some Links the other day, but I personally didn't like any of them. Maybe because of the tendancy this threads title describes. You say that your HR mpcs are available now, and I find the price very reasonable - are your HR mpcs as good as the metal ones?

Have you looked at any Pillinger mpcs? Any thoughts?
I don't believe the material matters at all although if soomeone could prove it unequivically I might change my position. Bird played a plastic sax and there's no great discernable difference. I really think it's about the chamber.

Anyway, I am not familiar with the Pillinger pieces but by all means I encourage people to try them. It would be nice to have someone else besides me making a decent piece. I personally don't want to do it any more. Phil
 
#101 ·
My impressions of the link i tried

Otto Link 6* - THIS mouthpiece must have been the worst link they released out of the factory because it was terrible the first time I played on it. It was stuffy and very inconsistent when going through the full range of the horn. I picked it up a few days later and tried it again it was a little better but was still very uneven and inconsistent. It is relatively dark mouthpiece not to dark but dark. I was a little disappointed to find that all the rumors were true about links being inconsistent and that you have to try a lot of them to find a good one. I have played on a link on alto for 6 years and I have never had a problem and I love it most people like the link on tenor but I jus tried it on alto and I loved it but that doesn't excuse that sorry excuse for a link that I played on last week. The altissimo range is very hard to play in. Babbitt needs to put some better care into making their mouthpieces. :cry: On a scale from 1 to 10 I give it maybe a 4 or 5.
 
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