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A4 = 432Hz tuning

14K views 60 replies 27 participants last post by  Uwe Steinmetz 
#1 ·
I just ran into this topic linked from the Borgani site. They apparently made an A4=432Hz tenor for a customer. There's a lot of information on this blog I thought it was interesting and worth sharing.

http://www.roelhollander.eu/en/432-tuning/432-foreword/

It's almost a continuation or counterpoint of the pi-based octave equal temperament tuning system mentioned on the Just-Temperament-versus-Equal-Temperament thread on this forum and some of the discussion in that thread.

Here are the addresses if the above links are not working.
http://www.roelhollander.eu/en/432-tuning/432-foreword/
http://chernov-trezin.narod.ru/ZS_1_borbat.htm
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?197108-Just-Temperament-versus-Equal-Temperament
 
#2 ·
#4 ·
That's what the various blogs and other discussion on the topic goes into. I guess one could form of group of 432-tuned instruments and reach Nirvana.

I am not a proponent. I just thought it was information worth consideration.

It is within the realm of possibility that our current standards could evolve. I mean a little over 100 years ago the dominant standards were other than A4=440, and should we mention Europe today. 110, 220, 440, 880 Hz octaves were good for analog students, but digital student don't mind decimals. The pi-based octaves article implies that the Hertz scale is off a bit. If acoustic academicians and physicists agreed, a whole new musical system would develop. It might take 100 or 200 years, but with the fast pace of technological change, it could start happening in 5 or 10 years.

Nothing is set in stone.
 
#9 ·
Well, thanks for warning me off. The blog I reference says he avoids all the mystical stuff. I don’t know much about the 432 tuning. Concerning evolution, I was actually thinking of the Pi-based octaves or something else potentially changing the way we think about music.

Changes in the music industry do happen, and we do abandon old instruments. You’ve heard of High Pitched Tuning and all of the HP instruments that adorn restaurants walls and garbage dumps. And, as much as we love vintage instruments, almost no professionals use instruments more than 80 years old and few more than 50 years old.
 
#15 ·
I was actually thinking of the Pi-based octaves or something else potentially changing the way we think about music.
From the sketchy information I read, it is not as revolutionary as it seems. Many instruments (like violin) tend to go sharper on the high register and it often sounds pretty normal.
The big change would be on piano and electronic instruments tuning

Tuning is always some kind of approximation. Which approximation is more pleasant to hear is a cultural matter.

A=432 is the official tuning fork in area51, by the way.
 
#14 ·
The 440-basis of their perfect pitch was a result of training/conditioning. That can be re-taught.

Pitches in different countries were all over the place until performing musicians started travelling the world and playing where the local standard was different from that of where their instrument came from. So a meeting was held and 440 was decided as the world standard. No reason whatsoever to change that, unless for commercial gain, some instrument maker wants players to replace all their instruments.
 
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#20 ·
Pitch is something makers have changed quite a bit. They always had their reasons and the main one has been to make instruments that are in tune in themselves. The 432 pitch is something that us being revisited. Its very interesting and I personally would like to get my hands on suck a tenor and play it for a while before I decide how if its worthwhile...
 
#21 ·
This is one of the so many “ floating in mid air" things which come (and hopefully go), every so often in this NEW AGE of ours.

Indeed we have had a Dutch émigré here who has written several panegyrics on the many merits of A=432Hz.

I have expresses my feelings about this whole shebang being a pile of taurus waste whether you look at it fro the exoteric side or the pseudo-logic one.

But all this is religion-like stuff.

There are people out there who live literally by the thing that “ magic” is in the air. We had members of the Dutch Royal family ( which says a lot about hereditary rights to royalty or anything really) who believed in talking to de dead through mediums and embracing trees.

Some people made a career in taking advantage of these feelings.

I just believe firmly that it is nonsense an nothing else than that.
 
#23 ·
Indeed we have had a Dutch émigré here who has written several panegyrics on the many merits of A=432Hz.
I guess I don't have to ask if you were referring to me?

First, don't worry, I'm not going to start this whole debate all over again, It's not worth my time do converse with people that are not interested in the topic anyway.

Secondly, does it matter where I'm from and where I live now? What are you trying to insinuate with that particular bit of information? I don't see the relevance to this topic or anyone's questions about it? It seems you're "playing on the man" again, instead of the ball. Why? I don't know what your problem is Milandro ... apparently you have created some bizarre picture of me in your mind and seem to be unable or perhaps unwilling to adjust it.

It's also obvious to me that you have not taken the time - not in the past nor recently - to really read what I have written on my blog about this subject. The choice of the word "panegyrics" would otherwise be badly chosen the least. And what "many merits" are you talking about? In the old topic about this subject I have mostly tried to explain about and clear-up some of the many misconceptions, misunderstandings and myths concerning this topic.

If you would have/had actually taken your time to honestly check what I have been writing and say for a long time, then you would have known I have always been critical about this subject, I debunked various myths and fairy tales concerning this subject and have placed a lot of info in a proper perspective.

It is fact that many of the stories you read online about this subject is a pile of crap, something that has always bothered me too, but that I am not responsible for. From ridiculous myths as the Goebbels 440Hz pitch (I wrote a short article about that as well) to various misunderstandings and misinterpretations of both historical, music theoretical and sound-related nature ...

I'm probably not that far off to say you haven't even read most of it either.

Yes, there is a lot of BS about this subject floating around on the internet, but where there's smoke there's fire. I Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, unlike you.

Now, I still find lower pitches more pleasing for the ears, no matter if that's 435Hz (the "Diapason Normal" that use to be the official French pitch in the past - there were even saxophones build for it) or 432Hz, or even lower: 430.5Hz (C4=256Hz - the "Scientific Pitch"). About all of that I have written as well.

This all does not mean I say or have ever said that 432Hz was "better" or more "natural" or what ever. Nor did I ever said people had to throw their saxophones in the trash and replace or something. Nor did I say people should perform in 432 and had to stop playing in 440Hz.

Just like the rest of the sax players on this forum I perform in 440Hz, that's what my horns were build for. And I have no intention to trash my horns, they are like family. Would I mind adding another horn to the family, perhaps in a different pitch, like 435 or 432? No, I would not mind.

Anyway ... writing you is rather useless I fear, I probably have wasted my time with that. I would prefer though that you do not make insinuations concerning my person, or for that matter ever mention me or hint in my direction. Thank you, very much appreciated.

For people that are really interested in this matter and are not as narrow/close-minded as some here on this forum, do check my blog, there are a lot of articles on it concerning this topic, weeding out fact from fiction and placing things in a larger perspective. And feel free to send me a message with questions if you have.
 
#25 ·
Here's what A=432 sounds like ....



This was recorded at A=432, which was as easy as tuning the guitars to it. The first time I tried this, the guitar sounded flat, but my ear quickly adjusted and it soon sounded normal (thankfully, I don't have perfect pitch). It's great singing at A=432, which takes some stress off the vocal chords, at least in my experience. As far as the esoteric considerations, I have no comment. I'm not getting into any of those arguments ... It is what it is, a different tuning standard, that produces a whole series of pitches that we normally don't ever hear. No big deal. I wouldn't buy an A=432 pitched sax because you'd have a hard time finding anyone you could play in tune with. The recording I made may not sound in tune to you but I guarantee that it is perfectly in tune (with A=432).

Turtle
 
#28 ·
What I find interesting about A=432 is that, when you play in this tuning standard, you are using frequencies that are, generally speaking, never heard in Western music. They are completely different, all up and down all the different scales and keys, and they create a whole different vibe for music. We've all grown up listening to music that is based on A=440, these other pitches never get heard (unless the band is really, really flat ..... the difference is about 1/3 of a half step). For me, it's a whole different vibe, even more different than the different keys are from each other in 440.

The A=432 tuning standard is widely available to some instruments (strings, vocals, electronic keyboards, guitars, bass, drums, etc.) and completely unavailable to others (woodwinds and brass), making it one big fat MOOT subject. It ain't gonna happen with saxes, so from that perspective it's largely just a curiosity. It can be an interesting subject, but not so much in a room filled with closed minds.


Turtle
 
#29 ·
What I find interesting about A=432 is that, when you play in this tuning standard, you are using frequencies that are, generally speaking, never heard in Western music. They are completely different, all up and down all the different scales and keys, and they create a whole different vibe for music. We've all grown up listening to music that is based on A=440, these other pitches never get heard (unless the band is really, really flat ..... the difference is about 1/3 of a half step). For me, it's a whole different vibe, even more different than the different keys are from each other in 440.

The A=432 tuning standard is widely available to some instruments (strings, vocals, electronic keyboards, guitars, bass, drums, etc.) and completely unavailable to others (woodwinds and brass), making it one big fat MOOT subject. It ain't gonna happen with saxes, so from that perspective it's largely just a curiosity. It can be an interesting subject, but not so much in a room filled with closed minds.

Turtle
Yes, that's (more or less) how I see it. It sounds and feels a bit different, and if you like it or not depends very much on how you experience music and sound.

---

For saxophone players there are a couple of options I think, some expensive, others less expensive. The most expensive option is to have a sax build for 432Hz. Borgani did so once. This though is for most people not an option, specially because the chance you're playing music tuned to 432Hz is still relatively small. And most brands would not be willing to do so anyway.

A member of this forum suggested using a "HP" High Pitch instrument. High Pitch instruments are generally set to A4=456Hz. 456Hz is one semitone (101 cents to be precise) above 432Hz. A High Pitch sax should thus have no intonation issues, you just have to transpose your sheets. High Pitch instruments are not easy to find in Europe though. I think only in the US, Australia and Canada? HP saxes have been put on the market? Here in Europe I haven't seen one myself yet. This is though something I have been thinking about, if I can find one for a really good (low) price.

Another option is to use a vintage saxophone that was originally build for the French market before WW2. Untill WW2 the "Diapason Normal" (A4=435Hz) was still used in France. The difference between 435 and 432 should be possible to correct with pulling the mouthpiece out a bit more and some small corrections with the embouchure. It is hard to find any such instruments though. And - specially those predating WW1 - do not have very good mechanics.

---

It is an interesting subject for sure, that's why I blogged about it a lot, to share findings, thoughts and ideas. I have noticed over the past 5 or more years that I have been interested in this topic that it's hard to find a room with open-minded people. For this particular topic this forum isn't one of those rooms. You are lucky if you're only "laughed at", but before you know it you'll be labeled and ridiculed if not worse. ;)
 
#32 ·
The harmonic content a pitch on a string instrument is slightly altered when there is less string tension, That's why some 'original' recordings of Mozart symphonies have a 'better' sound when the strings are tuned to 430 or 432. It's further altered by using gut strings.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Any pitch standard, now or in history, is just an arbitrary number. There is nothing mystical or artistically better about one or the other. A=440 has been a boon to instrument manufacturers who no longer have to worry that their product won't work in another country. Musicians can also feel secure that they can travel to a far away city and play with an orchestra without buying a new oboe, vibraphone or tuba.

The main problem with A=440 is that the power mains in the USA are using 60 cycles which often creates disonnance with bass instruments playing the note 'B' (or other notes). However, this is not the fault of the committee that chose 440. Instead, it was ignorance by the electrical engineers.
 
#42 ·
The main problem with A=440 is that the power mains in the USA are using 60 cycles which often creates disonnance with bass instruments playing the note 'B' (or other notes). However, this is not the fault of the committee that chose 440. Instead, it was ignorance by the electrical engineers.
This is total nonsense - 60 Hz has been the electrical standard in the US since the 1890's. If there's a dissonance issue with some musical notes, blame it on the A=440 committee who didn't bother to talk to the engineers! :razz:
 
#34 ·
Historically A has ranged from around 415 to 457 Hz. If you are interested in pitches no modern Western ears have heard take any music you'd like, import it into Audacity, and change the pitch to whatever your ear or heart desires. I'd venture to say that no lights will light inside your head when the pitch of A slips from 433 down to 432 Hz...
 
#56 ·
....snip....If you are interested in pitches no modern Western ears have heard take any music you'd like, import it into Audacity, and change the pitch to whatever your ear or heart desires. I'd venture to say that no lights will light inside your head when the pitch of A slips from 433 down to 432 Hz...
I'm not a proponent of 432, but pitch shifting in software causes audible (at lest to some of us) aliasing that detracts from the natural timbre of the tone. In other words - it's not a fair comparison. If you want to know what an instrument sounds like at 432, the only real option is to listen to it played at 432...as to the 432 debate, I too think it's mostly bunk. I feel the same way about 440 and perfect pitch too though. What's most important to me is that we play in tune with each other. I'm comfortable with any tuning that's harmonious...
 
#39 ·
Because the proposers of this " theory" (there are also such " theorists " among the members here think this has special properties , magical, healing, physical and so forth) believe in its meta-ultra-super- natural qualities.

Of course they don't understand that a frequency only makes sense if you indicate the time unit and that a second ( 1") is not a measure set in stone or heaven too as 440Hz (per second) is.

So NOTHING pre dates mankind and nothing pre-dates the standardization of time (or anything else).



Mind the BS galore! this first video has plenty!:faceinpalm:

this is more balanced an explanation ( and the good advise to do it, if you want, so you won't mix your music with ours)



and if you thought you knew what a second is...

 
#44 ·


Mind the BS galore! this first video has plenty!:faceinpalm:
He starts off with a good illustration of Poe's Law, but did you listen to it past 1:40?

420 was already popular for the 420 law on cannabis...
They decided to go for "432" because there was nothing associated to that number.
Notice that 3+2=5 and 4+2=6? It's a reference to 25 or 6 to 4, which PROOOVES the mind-expanding properties of A = 432. :colors:
 
#49 ·
Well you know, even though it's been some decades since middle school for me, when I pick up the soprano (I am primarily a baritone player) I sometimes find myself playing at A = 420 or so; and sometimes at A = 450 or so; sometimes within the same measure. Back to the woodshed for me!!
 
#43 ·
My Middle School Clarinet players must be brilliant as many have been playing at least at A=432 for years. Some 6th grade purist have even gone to 420. :)

Unfortunately, my saxophones and flutes have decided to adopt aggressive European tuning at A=450. Kids are just so smart these days. :) :)
 
#45 ·
Well, you know, an octave is 2X the fundamental frequency. A perfect fifth above that is theoretically 3X the fundamental. The octave above that is 4X the fundamental frequency.

In equal temperament, an octave is still 2X the fundamental and two octaves is still 4X; an octave and a fifth is 2.996614...X which is 0.1% different from the theoretical 3X value - in other words, indistinguishable by normal ears.

Pi doesn't enter in here in any way shape or form. Are they suggesting that an octave and a fifth should be Pi times the fundamental, which would be really weird?

It would be really interesting for the mythical types to actually study some basic mathematics. There seems to be a conspiracy theorist mentality that every so often erupts into diatribes against the equal tempered scale (which, by the way, is the thing that enables music to be performed in different keys...) That's when we hear people making statements like "equal temperament ruined music" and similar BS.

And none of this has anything to do with the frequency of the reference pitch, which could have been chosen at any value, but was chosen to A = 440 Hz because it was the most similar to the largest number of instruments in use at the time. What if we had decided that a minute was to be divided into 100 seconds, or 50 seconds? The only reason 60 seconds in a minute was chosen way back when is that 60 is a number that is readily divisible by a large quantity of other numbers.

For that matter, the number "60" is an artifact of the decimal number system. If humans had had 4 or 6 fingers per hand/foot, things would have been totally different.
 
#47 ·
There seems to be a conspiracy theorist mentality that every so often erupts into diatribes against the equal tempered scale (which, by the way, is the thing that enables music to be performed in different keys...)
Not quite accurate I think. Equal temperament allows music to modulate through different keys (I think that was Bach's point). You can still play in different keys with just or mean tone if the tune stays relatively in one key - depending on how easy it s may be to retune or re-intonate your instrument for each key. Easy on saxophones, brass, violins, voices but maybe not so easy on keyboard and fretted instruments. Although my wife's guitar has movable frets and her harpsichord has alternative black note e.g. for F#/Gb.
 
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