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The Cannonball Debate

10K views 41 replies 25 participants last post by  SuperAction80 
#1 ·
After months of researching saxes i read an incredible amount of different opinions about Cannonball Saxes. It seems that about half the people that have played them love them and swear by them, and the other half despise them. So, what's your opinion on Cannonballs? Give your argument as to if Cannonballs are good or bad, I'll start.

In my opinion, Cannonballs are superb. I play mine every day and I absolutely love it. The sound is amazing and the keywork is incredible. The fine details of my horn are very impressive, and I'm very impressed by the quality of Cannonball.
 
#2 ·
What's the "debate"? I neither swear by them nor at them. I've played many of them and don't care for them.

If you're looking for DATA, how 'bout telling us what model you play, and your level of experience.
 
#5 ·
+1, for me too.

I've played a couple, and even borrowed a Black Nickel Big Bell Stone series for some time while my B&S Made Allora was in the shop. It sounded good I guess, but I wasn't really a fan of the way it felt. Looked really great though.

Anyway as for Data, I've been playing for 21 years now. I've played Yamaha, Selmer, Keilwerth, Jupiter, Beuscher, Conn, and probably some others that I don't even remember anymore. I now play a German B&S made Allora Stencil for Tenor.
 
#3 ·
I'm unsure what the debate is either, aside from having to do with how Cannonball fits into the Taiwanese sax realm, and perhaps being a derivative of the "debate" about the quality of Taiwanese saxes in general. I also think I remember seeing the OP post a want ad for a YTS-82Z. Are you looking to replace your Cannonball, then? If so, I'd be curious why.
 
#6 ·
You state

"In my opinion, Cannonballs are superb. I play mine every day and I absolutely love it. The sound is amazing and the keywork is incredible. The fine details of my horn are very impressive, and I'm very impressed by the quality of Cannonball."

You'll never get consensus about something like this, not unless most of the greats over the ages played the same brand and model sax, which in this sax's case is impossible. If you love it so much why solicit other opinions? Just be happy you have something you love to play.
 
#7 ·
Cannonball opened up several cans of worms on the Internet. Most of the buzz was perpetuated by two techs who couldn't stand one another. One personally knew the couple who owns Cannonball, and loved the horns. The other had a saxophone manufacturing operation of his own. I'll just leave it at that.

Cannonball popped up at a time in which Asian horns, excluding Japanese saxophones, were not highly regarded. To compensate for this bias, Cannonball leaned heavy on their "Assembled in the USA" marketing. This caused a controversy from those curious about the saxophone's country of origin. Cannonball was also one of the first companies to offer laser engravings. This caused controversy by those who felt as if the only true engravings are those done by hand. Next, Cannonball added the resonance stones to their saxophone necks claiming that the stones increased resonance. This caused a backlash from anyone who knows anything about acoustics, though the stones do look good!

For my part, I think that the horns play pretty good, and I appreciate companies who try to make their horns cosmetically different. However, I LOVE Cannonball for another reason entirely. 10 years ago, the previous owner of my Super Action 80 sold me a fairly beat up Selmer for a great price since he "had the Cannonball bug". There is no doubt in my mind that any new Taiwanese tenor would outplay a Selmer that is leaking from virtually every upper stack pad. After the overhaul, I will bet good money that I ended up with the better horn, or at least the better horn for me.
 
#12 ·
Cannonball opened up several cans of worms on the Internet. Most of the buzz was perpetuated by two techs who couldn't stand one another. One personally knew the couple who owns Cannonball, and loved the horns. The other had a saxophone manufacturing operation of his own. I'll just leave it at that.

Cannonball popped up at a time in which Asian horns, excluding Japanese saxophones, were not highly regarded. To compensate for this bias, Cannonball leaned heavy on their "Assembled in the USA" marketing. This caused a controversy from those curious about the saxophone's country of origin. Cannonball was also one of the first companies to offer laser engravings. This caused controversy by those who felt as if the only true engravings are those done by hand. Next, Cannonball added the resonance stones to their saxophone necks claiming that the stones increased resonance. This caused a backlash from anyone who knows anything about acoustics, though the stones do look good!

For my part, I think that the horns play pretty good, and I appreciate companies who try to make their horns cosmetically different. However, I LOVE Cannonball for another reason entirely. 10 years ago, the previous owner of my Super Action 80 sold me a fairly beat up Selmer for a great price since he "had the Cannonball bug". There is no doubt in my mind that any new Taiwanese tenor would outplay a Selmer that is leaking from virtually every upper stack pad. After the overhaul, I will bet good money that I ended up with the better horn, or at least the better horn for me.
Previous owner of my SA80-II Tenor traded it in for a cannonball. I had the leaks taken out and story is pretty much the same...
 
#8 ·
I picked up a Cannonball curvy a few years ago...nice horn, works great for sax quartet....I'm not trading in any of my VIs, though....
 
#9 ·
I always said I would NEVER buy a Taiwanese horn ....lesson learned: Never say Never .. I LOVE my CB Vintage Reborn Soprano

I understand the newer ones are manufactured much better than their older counterparts ...

Everyone who has ever played my CB vintage Reborn soprano loves it ... It is heavier than the Yani 880 and the Yamaha 475 I owned ... perhaps contributing to the more round tone I get out of it as opposed to the Yani and Yamaha ..

The 'stones" claim is a farce and, as fr as i am concerned, an embarrassment for Cannonball to even make up such a stupid claim ...otherwise there is No Debate
 
#11 ·
Like Allen up there, I also said I would never buy a Taiwanese horn. Well, I sold a very rare Silver 30M and purchased a very not rare Silver P.Mauriat! I love everything about its sound and playability. The build quality feels very robust under my hands. Some have mentioned they have had issues, but the very vast majority seem not to have had any.

If you love your horn, and the way it sounds, who care what people think? It'll never be as revered as a MK VI anyway, since John Coltrane never played a Cannonball, but do you care? They feel like quality horns. I tried one a few days ago, and they feel very solid, the mechanism is excellent, and from all reports, the quality has been improved significantly since they first started selling horns. They're still in business, and they're older than a lot of the other "premium" Taiwanese saxophone makers.

So, if you love your horn, play it. There is no debate about these horns, except maybe in the minds of diehard brand loyalists who want to justify the high price of their instruments.
 
#20 ·
I had a Big Bell Global for a few years It was a solid horn without a doubt. Just a bit too bright but it took me a few years to come to that conclusion.

No Question that there's a ton of snobbery in the instrument world. We all know it's what you can do with the horn rather than the horn itself.

Most of the horns sold as professional and in good working condition will serve anyone just fine. At that point it just becomes personal preference.
 
#21 ·
No Question that there's a ton of snobbery in the instrument world.
So if someone doesn't care for a particular horn, it becomes "snobbery"?

Most of the horns sold as professional and in good working condition will serve anyone just fine.
True - except for the horns marketed as "Professional" that are not. The horns marketed as "Vintage Pro", yet are neither, are doubly troubling. Can we not challenge those marketing assertions?

At that point it just becomes personal preference.
Unless you're being a snob. :twisted:

:bluewink:
 
#22 ·
FWIW, I disliked every CB horn I ever played before I played the Vintage Reborn soprano of a client. Fabulous horn in all respects. Complex tone that left the modern Yanagisawas in the dust, really.

Strange company, in my experience. But they have a winner with this one piece soprano.
 
#23 ·
I was with Joe G that day ... my CB VR Sop he tried out .. he isn't the last person who has said this about this particular horn ... BTW, it may not be this particular horn ... last summer I was at Sam Ash in NYC trying out a number of Yani's, Yamahas and other Taiwanese horns. The salesperson did an impromptu "Blindfold " test with me ... he knew what I was seeking and he felt this horn got me there ... contrary to Littlewailers experience this horn is far from bright ... and Joe has paired it up with the best mouthpiece I have ever played on soprano (except his own mpc which he said I couldn't take ) .. so glad I sold my Yani!
 
#24 ·
Whether or not the conflict was begun by two techs with opposing marketing intentions (although, IMHO, I am not sure how much of an impact any of that had ~ anyone who ever played the Cannonballs back when they were introduced - or has had the unfortunate distinction of having to work on an old one ~ will remember these were just plain badly made instruments...so I doubt more fanning of the fire was needed on top of what the company caused all on their own), the fact remains that back then... these were bad horns with very slick marketing.

The fact also is, when they were getting battered about, the company upped their game...some. Hell, they had to.

But like others here....I feel that while they ARE better than they used to be, that isn't much of a rave in and of itself. They don't do anything for me, personally. Construction quality is OK, but really somewhere just a tad north of middlin' in the world of the more expensive asian horns. This includes whatever fancypants named model they have produced...Mad Meg, Vintage Reborn, whatever. It's not bad, the construction precision....but really, it's not great. They still have many of the telltale shortfalls of a modern Asian horn in the quality of build and sound dept., to me.

Better than some , not as good as others. One could do worse with their money...and one can do quite better with their money as well.

IMHO, if they cut their marketing budget and upped their R&D and assembly line budget instead, they could perhaps really produce something kickass.

But they seem too enthralled by their own precious stones* to really make the leap necessary.

They are sorta sexy looking, though...and quite loud....for whatever that's worth.

*yes that was intended as it sounds.....
 
#26 ·
Whether or not the conflict was begun by two techs with opposing marketing intentions (although, IMHO, I am not sure how much of an impact any of that had ~ anyone who ever played the Cannonballs back when they were introduced - or has had the unfortunate distinction of having to work on an old one ~ will remember these were just plain badly made instruments...so I doubt more fanning of the fire was needed on top of what the company caused all on their own), the fact remains that back then... these were bad horns with very slick marketing.

The fact also is, when they were getting battered about, the company upped their game...some. Hell, they had to.

But like others here....I feel that while they ARE better than they used to be, that isn't much of a rave in and of itself. They don't do anything for me, personally. Construction quality is OK, but really somewhere just a tad north of middlin' in the world of the more expensive asian horns. This includes whatever fancypants named model they have produced...Mad Meg, Vintage Reborn, whatever. It's not bad, the construction precision....but really, it's not great. They still have many of the telltale shortfalls of a modern Asian horn in the quality of build and sound dept., to me.

Better than some , not as good as others. One could do worse with their money...and one can do quite better with their money as well.

IMHO, if they cut their marketing budget and upped their R&D and assembly line budget instead, they could perhaps really produce something kickass.
Absolutely...could not agree more !

And I would just like to add to that, that the tenor like many other Asian horns is way too heavy for professional use, or for that matter any serious student that doesn't want to end up with neck or back problems.
 
#27 ·
And I would just like to add to that, that the tenor like many other Asian horns is way to heavy for professional use or for that matter any serious student that doesn't want to end up with neck or back problems.
My P.Mauriat Tenor is lighter than my Conn 30M was. The horn is a little heavier than an early MK VI, but lighter than a Keilwerth. The Cannonball Tenors I've tried seem to weigh about the same, if not lighter.

So...I don't understand this generalization. If Asian Tenors are too heavy, then basically all Bari Saxophone players are playing horns that are too heavy and they should quit.

JayePDX - I would also like to know the "pitfalls of modern asian horns". Especially in the sound department.

I can't really comment on the Cannonballs too much, since I frankly don't really like their horns that much, but this whole generalization about Taiwanese horns sounds like arguments from 10 years ago, and not today.
 
#28 ·
If Asian Tenors are too heavy, then basically all Bari Saxophone players are playing horns that are too heavy and they should quit.
The 'stones" claim is a farce and, as fr as i am concerned, an embarrassment for Cannonball to even make up such a stupid claim ...otherwise there is No Debate
+1 and +1
 
#34 ·
Yeah. Fwiw if the above by me seem hostile, then that was not the intent. It's the internet, everyone has their opinion and it's as useful as opinions can be.

As for OP, I think the analysis by shwoodwind is a good answer as to the build quality of these horns. Whether they sound good to you is personal. But the review is from 2011, and there isn't the same level of issues as they used to have. So, construction has definitely improved.

Under my hands, they felt much better, in the past the feel of the linkages felt much cheaper. As if I could snap the Bb mechanism if I pressed too hard. Maybe hyperbole, but you get the idea.

The soft metal older Yamahas for example had this kind of fragile quality under the hands, but for different reasons.
 
#35 ·
but to continue beating the dying bush, a thread on here from years ago (I found it via Google) had a list of horn weights for some popular horns. The MK VI tends to average around 7 - 7.3lbs. Modern SA-80 II and III horns weight more. So do Keilwerth, some Yamahas. Bronze Yanis. The Selmer Reference 36 ways more than the Keilwerth SX90R. Modern horns weigh more in general.

Cannonballs are heavier still. But by less than a lb. Sometimes less than half a pound, if comparing modern to modern.

The weight differential is minimal. Half a pound you won't feel. A pound, maybe...if you're going from a very light horn to a very heavy horn, you may feel it.

I stand by my opinion - if back and neck issues are a concern, you should go to the gym and watch your posture. Sonny Rollins is my idol, and he talks about a strong body leading to a strong sound. Of course, he was built like an NFL Cornerback, but this has merit. One of my teachers in college had me use a harness for a while until I fixed my posture and got to the gym more. He still recommends a harness in general (because it's too easy to pull your neck down with a strap when you get tired/lazy), but working out will solve more problems than reducing a Tenor's weight by half a pound.
 
#37 ·
I didn't read the whole thread but one of the most prodigious saxophonists at my school plays a cannonball tenor and he sounds AMAZING. I think he's mostly known for his violin playing, but he could still play circles around me on the sax. Ultimately all I have to share is anecdotal advice about one person that I know who plays a cannonball, but I can't stress enough that this guy can play beautifully from the bottom of the horn to the top.

You will need to try a few to find out if they're for you.
 
#39 ·
I didn't read the whole thread but one of the most prodigious saxophonists at my school plays a cannonball tenor and he sounds AMAZING. I think he's mostly known for his violin playing, but he could still play circles around me on the sax. Ultimately all I have to share is anecdotal advice about one person that I know who plays a cannonball, but I can't stress enough that this guy can play beautifully from the bottom of the horn to the top.

You will need to try a few to find out if they're for you.
A violinist, with improvisation skills, is very likely to put us all to shame. Seriously, try playing the instrument. It's a temperamental beast by nature, and makes saxophone seem as easy as a kazoo in comparison.
 
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