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Stan Getz Embochure

18K views 24 replies 13 participants last post by  1saxman 
#1 ·
I've been curious about his all day today. After reading Dave Liebman's Developing a Personal Sound and watching his video along with Bergonzi's video- I'm a bit confused.

Dave and Jerry seem to emphasize being relaxed, in certain ways completely free of tension.

Stan Getz used such a hard reed and he looks to be really tense in the chin and lips.

What do you guys think?
 
#12 ·
Warren, name sounds familiar, but not sure who that is. Anyway for some reason you made me laugh.

Will google.
Don't worry, he is just of of the most important and influential saxophone players of all times :)!

Unfortunately he has been affected by many lip problems affecting his embouchure ( and so did Coltrane, Sheep, a very close associate to Coltrane says here...).

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/20...ing_wp_cron=1435743110.8224110603332519531250



".....And then when I was about 40, I had a problem. I actually cut my lip from the inside and I had a scar inside my lip.

Q: What caused the problem?
A: I remember I got a brand new baritone sax from Selmer, (a model) with the low A, and when I got home I tried it out and hit that lowest note. And when I hit that low A - they had a special key to reach it - my lip split wide open from the vibration. And from that point on it's been a journey for me to rebuild my embouchure.

It was rough going for a while. Now I've sort of arrived at something that works for me - not like I used to; I've lost some of the attack. But there are things I didn't do before that I do now: circular breathing.

And my range from the bottom to the top of the horn - the bottom of the horn, I can still access that pretty much the way I used to. But the top of the horn I use a different embouchure, more of a trumpet embouchure.

Q: So overall, how do you assess your comeback?
A: Am I better or worse? It's not that simple. In the medium or lower register, I feel very comfortable. In the upper register, I still work for intonation. Some things are easier, some things are harder.

You know, I've listened to an interview with Stephane Grappelli, the violinist, and he was saying that some years ago he was in an accident, and he lost the use of two fingers. And it completely changed his approach to the violin, as one might imagine. But it was inspiring to me; from that I gleaned that one can reinvent one's self on an instrument.

I've been helped or inspired more than once by hearing from other people who had problems. Coltrane had problems, especially with his teeth, and eventually he had to have transplants - twice, I believe. His upper teeth were replaced. He had problems getting back into the music, but you wouldn't know it. He sounded better after he had his teeth replaced. His embouchure was more intact, I'm quite sure, after he had his teeth worked on..........."

Take a good look here...

 
#4 ·
I've been curious about his all day today. After reading Dave Liebman's Developing a Personal Sound and watching his video along with Bergonzi's video- I'm a bit confused.

Dave and Jerry seem to emphasize being relaxed, in certain ways completely free of tension.

Stan Getz used such a hard reed and he looks to be really tense in the chin and lips.

What do you guys think?
Whatever Stan was doing, he chirped quite a bit which would seem to be a tightish embouchure, maybe.

No one really sounds like Stan except for Stan, same with Desmond, Sanborn etc.
 
#6 ·
He does say generally to stay loose. But other than saying Stan played with a subtone, I'm not sure what else to make of it. I'm wondering if Stan had to be tighter to handle the reed. I notice Stan does seem to curl his bottom lip in more than other players.

Meza is a character:
"sell embouchures at the corner drug store" lol!
 
#7 ·
Joe Allard http://www.joeallard.org/words.html

"I remember the time I went to Birdland and heard Stan Getz. He was squeaking like mad. When he got through playing the set, he looked around ... and spotted me. He said, "Hey Joe, help me." So I asked to try his horn I couldn't get a note from F down. The reed was so hard, I couldn't get anything. So I said, "Gee Stan, why don't you let me make you a reed that's softer."

Now it's a very funny thing, I happened to have my reed knife in my pocket. I was on my way home for a couple of days and thought I would work [on reeds]. It was the only time I ever went to Birdland with a reed knife in my pocket. So I whittled the reed and he went out to play the next set and it was too soft. He didn't squeak, but he didn't enjoy [playing], he couldn't really blow into [it]. So I said, "Now let me make you [a reed] that is in-between this reed that is too soft and your reed that is too hard." I did and he was crazy about it.

The next day he came over to the studio, and the day after that, and the day after that. I got him a reed knife_ One day he came over with two Selmer saxophones, twelve necks, and about fifteen mouthpieces.... He wanted me to help him select a neck."
 
#13 ·
I don't believe that Stan Getz had a tight embouchure, I think maybe the harder the reed then the more pressure is put on our chops when playing, but that's not the same thing as having a tight embouchure. This video has some great close ups of his embouchure and it looks very relaxed and flexible. Our faces all scrunch up to some degree or another when we play, but again that's not because our embouchure is tight, it's just our physical characteristics. Stan did of course puff his cheeks out, which we are "not supposed to do", but it just goes to show that there are no rules.

I'm not sure how to embed a video here so you may have to copy and paste the URL.

 
#14 ·
Seems like Stan used hard reeds and blew hard (others that have played with him mentioned how hard he was working when playing).

He doesn't look like he's lightly caressing the reed with his bottom lip to me, and his whole mouth seem to be engulfing around the end part of the mouthpiece and not taking that much of the mouthpiece in and his cheeks puff out like Dizzy's.

Stan was prone to squeaking as a result of how he played and his gear, and how he was playing that gear to get his sound.

Seeing that none of us would know about Stan's embouchure except Stan, then it's all just speculation really.
 
#15 ·
Stan rolled his lower lip way back like the clarinet embouchure. You have to do this to sound like him (to the extent possible:)). Science then dictates that the 'tightness' of his embouchure has more to do with the air pressure he was using than the type of embouchure. Stan also played almost all the time in a sub-tone which requires air to escape the embouchure. These two facts appear to be in opposition but they aren't. It takes a very strong embouchure to play like Stan on a similar set-up and be able to get the airy sub-tone sound but with strength and projection. At a show I saw, he talked about his sound, saying detractors claimed that he had no projection without a microphone - then he proceeded to come out from behind the mic and just play 'on the air' to prove his point. It was fantastic.
I loved that Joe Allard tale about Stan posted above, and was tickled when it was revealed that he had 'GAS' like everybody else. :)
Stan was beyond 'serious' about his sound. At one time he said he wanted to 'eliminate the reed', by which he meant to take the reed 'buzz' out. He never, as far as I know, gave in and just went with it - he always was fighting the set-up, the horn, everything for that sound. And hey, we're glad of it, right? My favorite records are his 'Royal Roost' cuts from Europe. It was in this period where I believe he came closest to his ideal sound. The group was fantastic, all somehow contributing to that 'sound' but still shining as individual soloists. In my view, the best 'cool jazz' ever recorded.
 
#17 ·
Some interesting info;

Courtesy of Oliver G. of Hollywood, Florida;

Stan Getz: tenor: 1948-1954: Otto Link Tonemaster 4. 1954-1958: hard rubber Chedville 5 ,Woodwind Co. Steellay 4M, and a Brilhart Streamline Tonalin 7. 1958-1959: 40’s and 50’s Berg Larsen Duck Bill 90/3 and hard rubber 50’s Berg Larsen 80/3. 1959-1960: Babbitt stock Blank 5 customized by Ben Harrod. 1960-1963: Florida Pompano Hard Rubber Otto Link 5*. 1963: hard rubber Vandoren V-5. 1964-1970: (Whatever mouthpiece was available on the bandstand. Although, these are the following pieces that Getz collected) Otto Link Super Tone Master 50’s NY 5*-6* (baffle), Otto Link Super Tone Master Pompano 7* (baffle), various metal Duck Bill Berg Larsens 90-100/0-3, Otto Link “Tonemaster” 7 (baffle) with a soprano ligature, 1945 metal Hollywood Dukoff 7 (baffle), metal Selmer E, Link 4**** 5. , 50’s Dukoff Hollywood. 1969-1972: Brilhart Ebolin 5* (retirement). 1972-1989: hard rubber Otto Link late Florida 7* with a wedge or baffle and a hard rubber early Babbitt Otto Link Tone Edge (given to him by Teo Macero in 1975). 1985-1989: hard rubber Otto Link late Florida 5* with a long facing made for Getz’s worn out teeth (he literally played on his gums. With a baffle). 1989: Old Babbitt hard rubber 5*. 1989-1991: late Florida hard rubber Link 5* (with a baffle) and a new Babbitt Meyer 7M with a mid baffle and with the beak altered to a smaller size. (Getz complained that rubber mouthpieces were too big for his mouth.).

As of 2011, Getz’s daughter has allowed the last m/p to be duplicated for sales. Per Tenor Madness: “Through a special collaboration with Drake Mouthpieces, RS Berkeley, and Beverly Getz, daughter of musical legend, Stan Getz, the 'Stan Getz' Legends Series mouthpiece has been born”.
 
#18 ·
Thanks some really interesting posts.

Also Stan sounds very different at times- there's that gentle lush sound on the melodies and then the harder rough sound when playing fast and louder and more aggressive.

When I read he wanted to "'eliminate the reed', by which he meant to take the reed 'buzz' out." I wasn't quite sure what this means.

Regarding the Drake MP. Did they do a good jop "copying it". I need to google 3-d printing and sax mouthpieces.
 
#20 ·
Thanks some really interesting posts.

Regarding the Drake MP. Did they do a good jop "copying it". I need to google 3-d printing and sax mouthpieces.
I would hope that by now you would realize that there is much more at play than Stan's mouthpiece. Embouchure and reed selection dominate his setup in achieving his sound. That, and the fact that Stan spent his life developing his sound.

Get a concept. Play - listen - iterate.
 
#21 ·
I've been curious about his all day today. After reading Dave Liebman's Developing a Personal Sound and watching his video along with Bergonzi's video- I'm a bit confused.

Dave and Jerry seem to emphasize being relaxed, in certain ways completely free of tension.

Stan Getz used such a hard reed and he looks to be really tense in the chin and lips.

What do you guys think?
I'm wondering what Dave Liebman's and Bergonzi's methods have to do with Stan Getz?

BTW, Stan wasn't too obsessive about gear. He liked to try different things but wasn't a "gearhead" - more of a player. (Did I really need to say that? !!)
 
#25 ·
It's not really embouchure, reed selection or mouthpiece - it's how you play. If you want to sound like Getz, equipment certainly doesn't hurt, but you have to 'channel' him and play like he would. Then, if you do this on a Guardala 'King Curtis' for example, you can sound like Getz playing that same set-up. But not everyone can put themselves into this imaginary world.
 
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