So I realized when I first started practicing a couple months back that I would bite into my bottom lip a bit to keep pressure on the reed when my lip got tired. I have worked on long tones a couple times a week (the times I am able to practice) and tried embouchure exercises to try to strengthen my embouchure but I am still noticing that I am biting a bit into my lower lip. With the embouchure exercises I have tried pushing my top and bottom lips against each other as hard as possible but I feel that more in the corners of my mouth than the top and bottom lips. Same for the pencil exercise, the pencil falls out b/c my bottom lip isn't securing it at all and its own weight pulls it down and out of my grip. Is there a better way for my to strengthen my lower lip?
So I realized when I first started practicing a couple months back that I would bite into my bottom lip a bit to keep pressure on the reed when my lip got tired. I have worked on long tones a couple times a week (the times I am able to practice) and tried embouchure exercises to try to strengthen my embouchure but I am still noticing that I am biting a bit into my lower lip. With the embouchure exercises I have tried pushing my top and bottom lips against each other as hard as possible but I feel that more in the corners of my mouth than the top and bottom lips. Same for the pencil exercise, the pencil falls out b/c my bottom lip isn't securing it at all and its own weight pulls it down and out of my grip. Is there a better way for my to strengthen my lower lip?
Make sure your lower lip isn't rolled in too far. Keeping it in the position as if you were talking will adapt the muscles in your lower lip to the most comfortable position so you're not biting into it, while also giving you a more spread sound. I used to play with my lower lip tucked into my mouth. Iit's been almost a year since I changed my embouchure, and I still have marks on ! inside of my mouth.
With the embouchure exercises I have tried pushing my top and bottom lips against each other as hard as possible but I feel that more in the corners of my mouth than the top and bottom lips. Same for the pencil exercise, the pencil falls out b/c my bottom lip isn't securing it at all and its own weight pulls it down and out of my grip. Is there a better way for my to strengthen my lower lip?
You've got the wrong idea about what an embouchure is. It is not a 'weight-lifting' situation. While it's true that certain muscles are involved, you are not really trying to make them as strong as steel. It's much more subtle than that. The main thing is to loosen your embouchure, yet have some control over it. Loose, but just firm enough, which sounds like a contradiction, I know. "Firm enough" means under control, but not biting. Biting too hard will put pressure on your lower lip, upper teeth, and dampen the reed--just what you don't want. So start by loosening up and don't think of it as a muscle-building exercise.
It's true your lower teeth will put some pressure (but not a lot!) on your lower lip, so it will take some time for the skin on inside of your lip to toughen up (nothing to do with strength, though). That will happen naturally if you play on a regular basis. But it's very important not to bite.
What JL says is right on the money, embouchure is not about strength, your facial muscles should be barely involved if at all in the process of playing. the jaw should be supporting the reed and your facial muscles should be relaxed, the only thing they should do is form a seal around the mouthpiece so air does not escape.
You sound like you are confusing embouchure strength with lack of proper air support and you're trying to compensate for the lack of airsoft with your embouchure muscles. This basically just comes back to doing helps of longtones to build your control over your airstream
So I realized when I first started practicing a couple months back that I would bite into my bottom lip a bit to keep pressure on the reed when my lip got tired. I have worked on long tones a couple times a week (the times I am able to practice) and tried embouchure exercises to try to strengthen my embouchure but I am still noticing that I am biting a bit into my lower lip. With the embouchure exercises I have tried pushing my top and bottom lips against each other as hard as possible but I feel that more in the corners of my mouth than the top and bottom lips. Same for the pencil exercise, the pencil falls out b/c my bottom lip isn't securing it at all and its own weight pulls it down and out of my grip. Is there a better way for my to strengthen my lower lip?
If the inside of your lower lip is getting beat up (and I think this is more pronounced with Allard than with Teal embouchers) try some dental wax (there is a musical product version for reed players that some clarinetists use) or get a roll of medical tape 1-inch wide (I used Curad "Wet-pruf" in the past because it is malleable like cloth but water-resistant like plastic) and create a lip protector. Cut off a short strip - 1" x 1" should be enough - and fold the sticky sides to each other and then fold that in half again. After a while it will form itself to your teeth, like a retainer. Low tech, but does the trick.
And eventually your lower lip will 'toughen up' to the point it doesn't get sore, especially if you don't bite excessively. I always know that I haven't been playing or practicing enough, or on a regular basis, when my lip gets sore after a couple of hours of playing.
This past Friday, I was asked to participate in our local American Cancer Society's Relay for Life event. I was one of several local people performing. It was a blast. We had a great crowd of about 2500. I played some Elvis stuff as well as more up tempo tunes such as Tuff, Pink Panther, Night Train, etc. The sound system was provided by a local sound tech company and was amazing as was the sound engineer. Anyway, to the point of this post.
I was looking at a couple of photos taken of me while playing and it looks like I am trying to eat my mouthpiece. A few years ago I had an email exchange with Phil Barone about mouthpieces and he advise me to take in more of the mouthpiece and relax my embouchure. I have been following his advice ever since but this was the first time I ever actually looked at myself while playing. So here I am in my purple cancer survivor's t-shirt letting it rip. Please excuse the baggy shorts, but us old farts got to be comfortable when we play.
I was biting heavily, even most time when i was studying at the University. My lower lip was constantly sore and sometimes even a little bit bloody. I tried a couple of lip strenghtening exercises, dental wax, cigarette paper and whatnot. It all didn't help, i kept going because i wanted to improve, even though i was in pain.
To me the concepts of Joe Allard were a revelation. You don't need muscle force from your lips or your lower jaw. You just have to feel the reed a little and enable it to vibrate, the rest is done by proper air support. Read this http://morsax.com/embouchure.html or the posts Phil Barone has on his website and/or the lengthy threads here on this forum.
In my opinion, which is probably not universally shared, the production of a good sax sound is achieved by diaphragmatic air-support and configuration of the throat - NOT by 'biting' the reed! The only function of the lips should be to seal the interface of the mouthpiece with one's mouth to prevent air leakage. For a good example, look at some of the videos of Dexter Gordon found on YouTube and you will notice that his lower lip is never rolled-in over the teeth.
I spent a long time playing with a bad 'biting' embouchure and it was only due to the insistence of a good teacher that I changed to a 'relaxed' embouchure and I achieved good diaphragmatic air-support only after studying and playing flute.
With that said, if you are happy with your sound, do it your way and enjoy the music.
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