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Getting upper partials in tune with basic tone

8K views 45 replies 10 participants last post by  adamk 
#1 ·
I'm wondering whether there is a way to learn to get the upper partials in tune with the basic tone one is playing. And does it make a big difference?

E. g. you're playing low G. Upper partials that will sound are middle G, then high D, high G, high B, etc. I suppose these partials are typically somewhat out of tune with the basic G. It seems to me that the sound would be fuller and/or stronger when you get the partials right in tune with the basic G.
 
#3 ·
When you play, at least if the partials are not too distant from an integer multiple of the fundamental, a regime of cooperation between the partials will take place to establish a periodic sound (so, the fundamental and the higher partials will all experience a slight displacement to align the higher partials to integer multiples of the fundamental). When this alignment can not be obtained, you have two possibilities:
-either the sound will be unstable (warble, ...)
-or the too out of tune partials will not be excited and will be missing from the sound, which will be less complex.

The frequency of the partials is dialed in the setup (mouthpiece/horn) but a player can influence the alignment of the partials via embouchure/oral cavity manipulations. I think the practice of long tones and of overtones is what is required to get this mastery.
 
#5 ·
Alain Gen;2386766 The frequency of the partials is dialed in the setup (mouthpiece/horn) but a player can influence the alignment of the partials via embouchure/oral cavity manipulations. I think the practice of long tones and of overtones is what is required to get this mastery.[/QUOTE said:
The problem is: what are you supposed to listen to?
 
#6 ·
I've no magic bullet answer but
1. When you do long tones, a stable sound and pleasant sonority is hopefully an indication that the partials are correctly aligned
2. Practicing overtones with a tuner could give you an indication of how out of tune the partials are (however, there may be a bias because the embouchure/oral cavity manipulations you make to select the partial may influence its pitch). The tuner will of course give you the difference with equal temperament but for the octave, twelfth and second octave the difference is not very important -where a more important difference occurs is 5N=two octaves and a major third, high B in your above example of low G as a fundamental; here the just intonation is 14 cents lower than equal temperament.
 
#8 ·
My understanding of doing overtone practice is to establish some control over voicing the overtones which helps in playing altissimo notes as well as improving overall tone quality. This 'control' happens largely on a subconscious level (king of like developing 'muscle memory'). It does not require, nor depend on, playing the overtones perfectly in tune with the fundamental tone. Especially since those overtones aren't naturally perfectly in tune. So bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it much or spend a lot of time with a tuner struggling to bring them in tune. Better to spend that time getting the overtones sounding strong and full-bodied and making the transitions from and to the fundamental as precise as possible.

Caveat: I could be wrong, but this is just my understanding of the purpose of overtone practice.
 
#9 ·
Also, it's there's no need to practice overtones on other than low Bb, B, C, and C#. Every fingering beyond these four notes are vented reinforcements of harmonics of these fundamentals.
 
#10 ·
I've never played overtones of of a G for starters. Low D is about the highest I would go.

As far as tuning goes I think what you listen to is whatever the pitch is supposed to be. Some will be more out of tune than others. What you should try and do is get them as close as possible to in tune and not worry too much about it.

I never used a tuner when I was practicing overtones. I just used my ear and figured out what I needed to do to get them closer in tune.

Your set up is going to dictate a lot of the harmonics of the sax also. It gets easier the longer you play one set up.
 
#13 ·
I've never played overtones of of a G for starters. Low D is about the highest I would go.
So do I. English is not my mother tongue, so maybe I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about playing overtones at all. I was talking about playing ANY tone on a saxophone. Any tone will "consist" of a basic tone and a series of partials higher up. These can be more or less in tune with the basic tone. I suspect that the more in tune they are, the fuller the sound. And my initial question was: how can I practice to get these upper partials more in tune?
 
#12 ·
#14 ·
If you read again my post #6, I proposed to use a tuner during the overtones practice to get an idea of how out of tune (with respect to just intonation) the partials of your saxophone are. Some jumped to the conclusion that the purpose was to work the tuning of the overtones but it is not at all what I had in mind.
 
#15 ·
Ah so you just mean the relative notes in the harmonic series being in tune. Not playing overtones to gain those notes with the same fingering.

The answer should be even easier then. Every saxophone is out of tune. Some are worse than others. It's a feature that's literally built into the horn itself to give it it's unique sound.

Do your long tones with a tuner. Try matching your octaves of notes so they are as in tune as possible. But once you go past the octave the notes have very little to do with each other. The tuning is more dependent on the position of the tone hole(s) on the sax.

I find now after years of playing I generally have a better sense of pitch. But with the slightest contortion of my embouchure I can make my horn completely out of tune.

When you're closer to starting out you're trying to do the opposite and bringing the instrument in tune.

Yes you can practice to get your notes in tune. But do them 1 at a time and you'll make good strides.

What you listen to or your reference should be a good digital tuner.
 
#19 ·
I'm not sure you can affect the frequencies of the harmonics (I prefer this term to 'overtones'). I am positive that you can affect the relative amplitude of the harmonics. This is how you manipulate tone on a saxophone.
 
#21 ·
"Partial" and "harmonic" are not synonymous. By definition the frequency of an harmonic will be an integer multiple of the frequency of the fundamental whereas a partial is a natural resonance frequency of the instrument -due to the imperfections of the instrument, they are close but don't coincide. So you can not affect the ratio of the frequency of the harmonics (for a fixed fundamental frequency) but you can affect the frequency of the partials (via your vocal tract, way of blowing, ...).

I think the relative amplitude of the harmonics is in fact governed by the tuning of the partials, e.g. to obtain a darker sound you partially detune the higher partials (of course, to do that you don't need to be conscious of the mechanism!).
 
#27 ·
Interesting aside...I tried (and failed) to listen to a David Sanborn cd the other day. It was a newish one he did on Bluenote with Bobby Hutcherson. In the abstract, I would allow that Sanborn is a monster player, but I simply cannot stand his tone (think Singin' in the Rain).

His tone is very very bright, but at the same time it is loaded with harmonics.

Back to the acoustics lesson :)
 
#30 ·
#31 ·
Thanks everybody.

I did some research and this what I found in my issue of "Bulletproof Saxophone Playing" (available on bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com):

"Getting the Overtones in Tune

To get a clear picture of whether or not your overtones are in tune with each other, Dr. David Demsey recommends that you find a large and highly resonant room such as a classroom with no carpeting, or ideally, a room that an 80-voice choir or concert band would rehearse in. For many of us, a recital hall or even a classroom is not going to be an option for us, but if you have a particularly resonant living room, or really, any relatively large room without much carpet or sound insulation, that will be fine.

If you have a saxophone teacher or friend who is attuned to this concept, have them stand in the room with you as you play long tones and have them point out when your overtones are in tune and when they’re not. If you are going to be doing this alone, listen as closely as possible to the upper partials of your sound. When they’re in tune with each other, you’ll feel a distinct ringing sensation in your head. It’s much like the concept of hitting a baseball in the perfect spot on the bat, causing the ball to fly an astonishing distance into the air. When your overtones are in tune, your sound will become effortlessly powerful. Being heard will no longer be about playing as loud as possible. In fact, you will probably be heard quite clearly playing expressively at a medium level of volume.
This is due to the fact that your overtones are resonating powerfully off of one another, turning your tone into a virtual “giant truck of sound” plowing beautifully through anything standing in its way."
 
#32 ·
Thanks everybody.

I did some research and this what I found in my issue of "Bulletproof Saxophone Playing" (available on bestsaxophonewebsiteever.com):

"Getting the Overtones in Tune

To get a clear picture of whether or not your overtones are in tune with each other, Dr. David Demsey recommends that you find a large and highly resonant room such as a classroom with no carpeting, or ideally, a room that an 80-voice choir or concert band would rehearse in. For many of us, a recital hall or even a classroom is not going to be an option for us, but if you have a particularly resonant living room, or really, any relatively large room without much carpet or sound insulation, that will be fine.

If you have a saxophone teacher or friend who is attuned to this concept, have them stand in the room with you as you play long tones and have them point out when your overtones are in tune and when they're not. If you are going to be doing this alone, listen as closely as possible to the upper partials of your sound. When they're in tune with each other, you'll feel a distinct ringing sensation in your head. It's much like the concept of hitting a baseball in the perfect spot on the bat, causing the ball to fly an astonishing distance into the air. When your overtones are in tune, your sound will become effortlessly powerful. Being heard will no longer be about playing as loud as possible. In fact, you will probably be heard quite clearly playing expressively at a medium level of volume.
This is due to the fact that your overtones are resonating powerfully off of one another, turning your tone into a virtual "giant truck of sound" plowing beautifully through anything standing in its way."
Yeah, well I don't know how much physics he knows or what he's actually talking about.

Every note on the Sax has a fundamental (bottom tone) and higher overtones and these higher overtones don't follow equal temperament (as do the regular notes on the Sax) but they follow a just intonation overtone scheme (where the interval pitches are a bit off from equal temperament pitches) where the first overtone is an octave higher and the next overtone is a fifth higher etc etc.

So a note on the Sax goes, fundamental (bottom tone), first overtone (octave higher tone), second overtone (fifth higher tone) etc etc.

If the player wants to play the first overtone then they have to lose the fundamental (bottom tone) somehow and they do it by increasing the pressure behind their airstream (raising their own oral impedance).

Just say the player has done that and they have lost the fundamental (bottom tone) then the pitch will go up to the first overtone which is an octave higher pitch.

This new octave higher pitch will arrange a new fundamental (bottom tone), first overtone (octave higher tone), second overtone (fifth higher tone) etc etc from itself, because the new octave higher pitch has basically become a new fundamental (bottom tone).

So just say we start with a low Bb note, then as we go up the low Bb's notes overtone ladder we will hit a Bb note an octave higher (first overtone) and this note will have it's own overtones (ie octave higher than fifth higher).

Then we go up to the low Bb notes next overtone (second overtone ) which is F and this note will have it's own overtones (ie octave higher than fifth higher).

The (bottom tone), first overtone (octave higher tone), second overtone (fifth higher tone) etc etc ladder scheme is part of any Sax note and is responsible for the tone/timbre.

No one has to align up anything because it just happens automatically.

It might seem confusing but it's really pretty simple how overtones work on the Sax once the basic overtone ladder stuff is understood and how every bottom tone produces it's own overtone alignment (ie octave, fifth etc etc) and the bottom tone can be a higher overtone of a regular note and the tones below it have been muted by the player so that a higher pitch results.

I think hat you might mean i some sort of practice routine that produces clear stable overtones and that's just all about practice and using your ears.
 
#33 ·
Thanks saxpiece, but you're replying to a question I never asked, see above ...

English is not my mother tongue, so maybe I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about playing overtones at all. I was talking about playing ANY tone on a saxophone. Any tone will "consist" of a basic tone and a series of partials higher up. These can be more or less in tune with the basic tone. I suspect that the more in tune they are, the fuller the sound. And my initial question was: how can I practice to get these upper partials more in tune?
 
#35 ·
In my reply I said that the lining up of the overtones happens automatically for all notes and that it happens as a fundamental (tone) and then an octave higher overtone and then a fifth higher overtone etc etc and that's just the way it happens.

The player can't alter the octave and fifth overtone intervals of any note much at all in terms of tuning them because the player doesn't have much control over them in an individual way, but they can alter the fundamental a bit by oral impedance changes or just by lipping down but the overtones will still be at the octave and fifth etc relative to that fundamental (whatever the fundamental is), but a player can alter the strength of the fundamental and octave and fifth overtone intervals of any note to some extent and therefore alter the tone somewhat.

Some of the things that alter the fundamental and overtone strengths (tone) are how the note attack is done and the airstream and things like that (ie how the player plays) and also the gear can as well.
 
#34 ·
Now that I understand your question better I think you can't change the tuning of the partials but just the impedance or volume of the partials themselves. How sharp or flat your fundamental is is going to affect the partials for sure but I don't think (and anyone can please fell free to correct me) you can specifically change the tuning of those partials without changing the tuning of the fundamental itself.

You can learn to accentuate and and decrease them but you're going to run into a bunch of trouble as soon as you try and tune them!

Best of luck.
 
#36 ·
@Littlewailer and Saxpiece: I think you are confusing "partial" and "harmonic". It is an essential point to the discussion.
However, we should continue the discussion on the other thread in the acoustics forum because we are boring the readers who don't have an interest in acoustics.
 
#37 ·
Whatever.

I'm an Electronics Engineer in Computing Systems and so I do know these things (I'm not an Acoustics dude though) but I'm also trying to explain to novices, and so technical mumbo jumbo is not the main thing but getting some idea of what is happening is.

I'm using fundamental and overtones rather than partials because some Sax players have an idea of overtones.

Using the model of Fourier analysis, the fundamental and the overtones together are called partials http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone
 
#43 ·
I'm a little concerned with the 'distinct ringing sensation in your head'. :)

I think what he's talking about is the "singer's formant", but it's about tuning formants, not tuning overtones, and it's not about frequency or pitch. It's how a tenor is able to project over a 100 piece orchestra with no amplification.
 
#44 ·
When I tune a piano (by ear) I listen to the partials of one string compared to the same frequency partials of another.
When strings are old or not made well there are inconsistencies in the hardness or thickness of the speaking length.
This can create whole partial series(s) that aren't in tune with the "natural" one.
Interference beats are created which makes for an unclear sound (honkytonk).
Maybe something like this can also happen in a woodwind.
 
#45 ·
This can most definitely happen with a woodwind, string, or brass instrument. I have an article by acoustician Neville Fletcher that address 'inharmonicity'. The article has lots of math in it, though. That part, I'm afraid is beyond me.

http://www.acoustics.asn.au/journal/...3_Fletcher.pdf
 
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