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I can't stop tightening up!!

10K views 30 replies 19 participants last post by  Ballad Kid 
#1 ·
I am working on getting a looser embouchure, but when I practice, about 10 seconds in my face goes "oh h$ll no you don't!" and tightens up.
I learned a tight embouchure from our band director as a kid and am having a hard time loosing up.

Any tips for overriding that "reflex"?

Thanks
Chris
 
#4 ·
Do you play with your bottom lip tucked over your teeth or rolled out? Since I started playing with it rolled out, my teacher tells me I'm too sharp, so I rolled it in a little and he said my pitch improved. Don't know if this is just me, and if you don't play with your lip out, well this was just a suggestion. Hope the issue goes away.
 
#5 ·
I've struggled with that, since I studied clarinet as a kid. My current teacher has me doing large intervals, like play a low note then jump up to an interval in the upper octave and don't change your embouchure. It's helped me get a better tone and intonation in the higher notes (and my bite plates last longer :-0 )
 
#6 ·
Yep, those and overtones do wonders. :) What are you in, high school, college, or what? I don't see a lot of people on here who talk about having a teacher, and it's like everyone knows so much more than me LOL!
 
#9 ·
This directed at me? I'm 65... :hippy2: Truth be told I'm really a piano player, but got back into sax about 4 years ago. I used to doubled on alto back in the day when I was doing music for a living, playing top 40 that had to sound just like to record, everyone wearing matching polyester ensembles. Now I'm working on tenor, keeping senility at bay, trying to work a few sax tunes into my jazz quartet's repertoire. A good teacher is a great thing. Helps you focus, gives you an incentive to practice. They know a lot of short cuts, and at my age I need them all.
 
#8 ·
I would go with whatever it takes to play like you want to. I'm old-school. When I was growing up, I studied pictures of 'the greats' playing, and they all had iron chops. Their faces were made of muscle and it showed. If you want to play forcefully you need a strong embouchure to seal the mouthpiece. Now 'biting' is not good, and you need to control that, but I believe you need a strong embouchure.
 
#10 ·
Practise overtones and long tones. When you do your long tones, see how low you can pull the pitch without the sound dropping off. Find your limit and then work towards it every time. Practise with a tuner or a drone by pulling the pitch down with your jaw gradually. This will get you used to the sensation of dropping your jaw, as well as building your embouchure muscles. Do not expect results. Results will happen over time and you won't even notice it until one day you'll realise all the work you've done. This only comes from consistent work on tonal exercises.

Don't blame your band director, literally every saxophone player in the world has a constant battle of tightness/looseness vs having a firm embouchure for a focussed sound, sealing, intonation and voicing high notes. It just takes time and work, but it is definitely worth it! Building strength and ability on an instrument is one of the joys of life.
 
#15 ·
Practise overtones and long tones. When you do your long tones, see how low you can pull the pitch without the sound dropping off. Find your limit and then work towards it every time. Practise with a tuner or a drone by pulling the pitch down with your jaw gradually. This will get you used to the sensation of dropping your jaw, as well as building your embouchure muscles. Do not expect results. Results will happen over time and you won't even notice it until one day you'll realise all the work you've done. This only comes from consistent work on tonal exercises.
Yeah, my instructor just got me doing this. In fact I actually noticed some results just in becoming aware of the degree to which it is possible to lower and loosen your jaw.
 
#12 ·
While everything said here is good advice, I would suggest certainly re-assessing your reed choice. If you're playing on something that is too big for you, it's just too big. Never be ashamed to choose a smaller reed if it actually fits you. +1 on overtones for tone and control, but make sure the reeds you're playing on are right! Also, I used to play with a very tucked in lip, and I always noticed a weird thing would happen after about 1.5 hours of practice. My lip would literally fail. That's the only way I can explain it. I could feel that the muscles were just done. Maybe tuck that lip a little less, and you might do better. Embouchure should not be like working out. You should feel relaxed when playing. If you're focusing on embouchure a lot, maybe try not thinking about it at all for a practice session. Sometimes when you just forget about it completely, you do it right and there are no more worries.
 
#14 ·
I think this problem is a little bit like alcoholism--you can control it but it never really goes away!

My advice would be to build some practice routines that include going up and down rather than remaining static.

A good basic would be to just play intervals back and forth from middle B.

Play the B and make sure your embouchure is comfortable and loose and the note sounds good.
While you are playing, try to imagine the next tone up.
Go up to C and back and concentrate on keeping the same relaxed feeling and keeping the tone consistent.
Then C#, D, D#, etc. all the way up.
Rascher has a similar exercise. This has really helped me.

If you have a particular note that you lip up or tense up on instinctively, try tone matching that fingering to a semitone below.

eg (for Bb bis) play the A below then switch to the Bb fingering but match the A. When you play the proper fingering, you will "feel" how the note does not need the extra pressure.

This is similar to the idea Alain gave above. Matt Otto also suggests playing your longtones flat on purpose.

Good luck!
 
#16 ·
One thing that helped me bite less, and to play with a looser grip on the mouthpiece, was to start using a mouthpiece patch. This allowed my upper teeth to stay exactly where I wanted them to be, while applying less pressure. If you want to try a mouthpiece patch, but don't like the idea of a thick patch, try some of the thin 3M patches, which are clear-colored.
 
#17 ·
#18 ·
Are you sure you're biting too hard to begin with? There is a fine line between an embouchure that is too loose and too tight. If you're pretty sure you're biting too hard, you definitely want to keep working on loosening up. Along with suggestions about using a softer reed, using a mpc patch (definitely do that if you aren't already), here's an exercise you can try:

Play without your top teeth touching the mpc. Keep in mind this is an exercise, not the way to play normally. But if you work on doing that, then put your teeth back on the mpc, gently, you can find the 'sweet spot' in terms of a loose embouchure. I agree with 1saxman, though. You don't want a sloppy embouchure. Find what works for you and what gives you the most control and best sound.
 
#19 ·
My sound is descent, but I want to have a fuller sound and noticed that my embouchure seemed a little tight. I'm assuming it's tight, because my face will get tired after awhile and my lip will get the old crease in it from my lower teeth.
I don't have a clarinet embouchure by any means, but it just seems when I concentrate on loosening up more, my face responds by tightening up. Weird, but it does.

I do already do long tones and overtones, but I think my embouchure needs improvement as well.

I played alto when I was a kid for about 7 years, very intensively and then took 25 years off. I bought a tenor in Feb of last year and committed to finally playing what I wanted to play.

I practice everyday and have a pretty good routine, but have been putting off the embouchure work, because it will be like starting ALL OVER again. The whole raspy nasty sound and all. If I can get my embouchure loosened up, I think I will sound better and more relaxed. Kind of like I do when I just wail away.
 
#22 ·
(...) I practice everyday and have a pretty good routine, but have been putting off the embouchure work, because it will be like starting ALL OVER again. The whole raspy nasty sound and all (...)
The "back to basics" moments in the practice are uncomfortable because one feels like a beginner again. However, they are an important source of progress -I'd even say that sometimes they are necessary to make progress.
Also, on your recording I remarked that you play without a vibrato. A vibrato could be useful to relax your embouchure. If you plan to play with a vibrato later, you will have an other back to basics moment anyway. So, you could could make profit of this return to the fundamentals to also introduce a vibrato in your playing.
 
#20 ·
Here is a recording I did awhile back. I know I have a host of problems, like articulation and what not, but you can get the jest of my current sound from this. I am working all the way to the top of the horn on this one. The middle F to palm F jump is a little tough for me right now.

http://www.chrishoodblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Love-Me-Like-You-Do-Final.mp3

Just for comparison, here is a recording I made last March after having been playing for about 3 weeks.

http://www.chrishoodblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Titanium-Audio.mp3

Yeah, have a good laugh. :faceinpalm:
 
#24 ·
I listened to your recording. I think you have similar problems to the ones I've been dealing with.

- not enough air support, resulting in notes tapering off
- not hearing the note before playing it and guessing for pitch, resulting in tension, and biting, and intonation issues

I'm trying to fix it with

- overtones
- patterns, full range
- Melodies in the top of the horn
- using drones
- playing along with tunes like Joe Henderson doin Chelsea Bridge up high
- all blues on tenor, with the Middle C# long tones
- matt ottos drones
- being aware of the resonance up high, which is the first thing to go when biting starts

HTH
 
#26 ·
I am working on getting a looser embouchure, but when I practice, about 10 seconds in my face goes "oh h$ll no you don't!" and tightens up.I learned a tight embouchure from our band director as a kid and am having a hard time loosing up.
Any tips for overriding that "reflex"?Thanks Chris
Read about "Embouchure Focal Dystonia". If you do a search, it will show multiple links. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it could be related, and may give you a starting point to look at other potential causes of your problem. Good luck.
,
 
#27 ·
I too have problems biting!.....what seems to be helping me is two things. Firstly, be aware that the amount of pressure that you push into the horn with reak havoc on tuning if you blow wildly into the mouthpiece. Common advice is blow warm Air then concentrate on using your bottom lip to tune to where it needs to be and lock it there. Basically, doing scales on the mouthpiece only will help you to become more sensitive to the minute changes in lip pressure ........hope my explanation helps
 
#28 ·
After reading a little more and see you are going from alto to tenor...
Instead of tightening 'up', try tightening 'in'.
Pull the corners of your lips in like a drawstring. Still try the softer reeds as well but just a full strength softer.
This combination should help with breath support and open up your sound a bit. :)
 
#29 ·
I think I found something that really helped.
I was playing on a mp with a pretty small beak.
I went back to a generic mp with more of a concert sized beak and BAM! Relaxed!
I am ordering a Jody Jazz hard rubber.
It has the classic sized beak, but Ina quality mp and opening I like.
I think my prob is solved. :)
 
#30 ·
You've gotten some pretty good advice, as well as thinking that you may have solved the problem, so I'll just add this: Jack Daniels. Keep drinking until you can't feel your face anymore. That'll loosen your chops.

BTW, get three sax players talking about a problem and you're likely to get three opinions. So I'm just going to respond to one comment above stating that you can't get projection and strength with a soft setup. Disagree. And there are plenty of examples to contradict that (likely as many as there are which would contradict it). Gato Barbieri comes to mind. #2 reed. If there's no strength or power in this, I don't know where there is.

 
#31 ·
Just do the changes, no matter how dramatic, if they are needed. One weekend I decided to change from lip under teeth to rolled out. Sunday I was back where I was, but with greater comfort, control, and damping of the reed. One's own mind can be the biggest obstacle. The words "Hell, I can do that", repeated over and over while making yourself believe them, can do wonders.
 
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