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Problems with gurgling in the low register

9K views 41 replies 12 participants last post by  BillyGreece 
#1 ·
Hello everyone.

So recently I have been having some problems with playing low notes on my tenor. I can get all the way down to low D, but anything lower than that I start getting some gurgling. I can honk out those lower notes by pushing my jaw forward a little bit, but I've even tried subtoning them and they start gurgling. I had some leaks fixed about a month ago and I checked with a light and my novice skill and didn't see any leaks but I could be wrong. Anyone have any ideas on what I might be doing wrong?

Thanks
 
#5 ·
Dear Sax Pros,

i would kindly ask for your help once again...lately i m experiencing a very weird issue.The first part of my daily practice routine constists mainly of overtones,long tones and tuning.While i am blowing the Low Bb on my alto (same embouchoure,same breath support,no cheeks puffing,no embouchoure adjustments,the tongue's attacking is down-centered) i have a very "clear" and round tone.BUT when i m going half step down to Low B, i face an obvious tone gargling.I am getting my tongue as back as possible from the mouthpiece's facing but the problem remains.The 3rd harmonic of high B to Low B comes out lately really hard...maybe that's another factor that may solve this mystery.

After one hour of warming up,the problem seems to subside but not totally.

Do i have to visit my tech again? Or it's just Low B of the alto sax "oddly" pitched?

Thank you!
 
#7 ·
Dear Sax Pros,

i would kindly ask for your help once again...lately i m experiencing a very weird issue.The first part of my daily practice routine constists mainly of overtones,long tones and tuning.While i am blowing the Low Bb on my alto (same embouchoure,same breath support,no cheeks puffing,no embouchoure adjustments,the tongue's attacking is down-centered) i have a very "clear" and round tone.BUT when i m going half step up to Low B, i face an obvious tone gargling.I am getting my tongue as back as possible from the mouthpiece's facing but the problem remains.The 3rd harmonic of high B to Low B comes out lately really hard...maybe that's another factor that may solve this mystery.

After one hour of warming up,the problem seems to subside but not totally.

Do i have to visit my tech again? Or it's just Low B of the alto sax "oddly" pitched?

Thank you!
It's tempting to think that because low Bb pops nicely there can't be a leak. But, sadly, it's false !
 
#8 ·
Often motorboating or gurgling down low is caused by a leaky neck tenon. Make sure the screw is tightened all the way it can go and that there is no play in the neck and body connection. If you can turn it or rock it then that is where the leak is. To test it yourself first, wrap the neck tenon end with teflon tape and then insert it and clamp it in place. That should stop the leak and the gurgle, but not always. Anyway, whether that is the cause or not, if the gurgle persists you need to take the horn to your tech. Dropping a cork down the bell really isn't a solution although it might work to stop it in a pinch if you need to play a gig before you can get it to the shop.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for all these "tech" stuff, it's really helpful for a sax student to know ways to check his horn! I hope this malfunction is not a serious problem! Thank you!
 
#13 ·
Ooops...now that is a problem. Hope you can figure it out yourself. Try searching on YouTube for any repair videos that show how to check for leaks that cause that problem and how to fix them. Also get or make yourself a leak light to help you find leaky pads.
 
#15 ·
I'd push in my mouthpiece a little a see what happens. My bell tones motorboat when they are too flat. If that worked I would change the Bb key height (if I had adjustable pad keys on the key guard) to raise the pitch of B so I could move my mouthpiece back to the position that is in tune with the rest of the horn. If that didn't work I would visit a tech.
 
#18 ·
After removing my patch from my mouthpiece (mouthpiece Cafe, NYC, 6" tip),the problem vanished.The tone was much more full and round,and the downbeats to low B and low Bb to the arpeggios were just paradise for my skills.The pads that i was using for almost 2 years are the Vandorens...very comfortable for the teeth but very thick.So i suppose that this is a reason why my embouchoure is so unstable sometimes. The problem's now that i am used to pads usage.

Any suggestions to this issue?

Thank you sax land!
 
#20 ·
After removing my patch from my mouthpiece (mouthpiece Cafe, NYC, 6" tip),the problem vanished.The tone was much more full and round,and the downbeats to low B and low Bb to the arpeggios were just paradise for my skills.The pads that i was using for almost 2 years are the Vandorens...very comfortable for the teeth but very thick.So i suppose that this is a reason why my embouchoure is so unstable sometimes. The problem's now that i am used to pads usage.

Any suggestions to this issue?

Thank you sax land!
I like patches because they help the player to hear more of what the listener hears - less bone conduction. You already know your embouchure needs work. So do that. I would suggest that you put the patch back on and work out the real problem.
 
#19 ·
There are three possible causes that I did not see mentioned already, but I only glanced through the responses.

n+1) Your right pinky is pushing on the low Eb key a little bit when it depresses the low C key.
n+2) There is a weak spring on a side key. The low note forms a node near the side key which causes the side key to vibrate.
n+3) The mouthpiece is not pushed far enough onto the neck. This is far more common that one would think. The way students are taught to tune up simply does not work.
 
#22 ·
There are three possible causes that I did not see mentioned already, but I only glanced through the responses.

n+1) Your right pinky is pushing on the low Eb key a little bit when it depresses the low C key.
n+2) There is a weak spring on a side key. The low note forms a node near the side key which causes the side key to vibrate.
n+3) The mouthpiece is not pushed far enough onto the neck. This is far more common that one would think. The way students are taught to tune up simply does not work.
To be honest dear Jive Dadson it's the first up i come across such detail and i want to thank you for that.The factor no.3 yesterday night,was corrected by heart.I pushed the neck so that it seals good to the body.It was done by tuition-it was not intended.

But many SOTW posted the view that "the less thicker a patch,the better"!

Today i ll check all these three factors and then i ll come up with the pad's aspect!

Thanks again!
 
#23 ·
After removing the very thick Vandoren black patch (thickness 0,8mm),and putting on the BG clear plastic patch (thickness 0,4mm),things were way better.But this restriction to the Low B,still exists.In any case if there's a leak,i suppose it must be really subtle.I enjoyed my embouchure very much,the teeth was "stuck" to the mouthpiece,and i felt more confident and stable with this pad.And it's really comfortable too.
 
#24 ·
A common problem on tenor. Besides all the posted replies, make sure the mp is far enough onto the neck cork. Push it farther in (will be too sharp of course) and see if the gurgle disappears. Certain mp chambers don't match up well with certain saxophones. A metal Link was the only mp that would work on my Mrk VI tenor-there are no leaks by the way.
 
#25 · (Edited)
You have mentioned a factor, that wouldn't cross my mind dear Reedscraper! Well i am in tune,with the mouthpiece 2 inches after the middle of the cork,and i really didin't even think that it might be a reason for the gurgling! Thanks! I will be a bit sharp,but i ll gonna experiment for sure! By the way,my set up is the Trevor James Raw Unlacquered alto sax,the mouthpiece Cafe NYC (6"),and the Fibracell 3 reed!
 
#27 ·
I think there is a confusion of problems being made here.

One thing is what has traditionally been called "motorboating", which is a sound much like a motor boat when the bell-key notes are played. That can be caused by either of two things, one, a a leak up high in the upper stack (e.g. a palm key) or a loose or defective neck tenon, and the other a badly designed bow in certain vintage horns. The first requires a trip to the tech to find and fix the leak. The second has usually been fixed by welding a bump into the bottom of the bow. This is why the motorboating effect has been dealt with most often by dropping a wine cork or mpc cap down into the bell to disrupt the airflow pattern that is thought to be the reason for the sound.

Another problem is when the notes on any range of the sax are unstable and hard to control and keep pure. This is not what I would call gurgling but rather instability and is caused by the mouthpiece not being pushed in to where it is in fact in tune. The mpc can appear to be in tune near the very end of the cork depending on the neck and the length of the bore of the mpc. But that is not the true tuning position and it must be pushed in until it comes back into tune much farther in. Again depending on the mpc and the neck this can be quite far in. Only then will the note be stable up and down.

The last problem is one the OP appears to have had with his embouchure. This is not a problem of gurgling of the sax but a problem of an unformed embouchure and the only fix for that is lots of longtone practice and the guidance of a competent teacher.

As to gurgling being caused by the thickness of the mpc patch, that is something that is hard for me to fathom. I've played with patches of varying thicknesses from really thin, like the now-discontinued vandoren ultra-thin black indestructible ones, to really thick rubber ones, and no such problem of gurgling, gargling or other odd sounds has resulted.

For the life of me I can't see how a piece of material no more than 0.10 mm thick can cause enough of a change in one's embouchure to cause problems in sound production of any kind. Looking at the patches I have on hand they are thin clear ones 0.4mm thick and black ones 0.8mm thick. I also have played with thicker ones and with none at all, and the only difference is in the comfort for my teeth and preventing scratches on the beak. Without one maybe your teeth could slip off a polished beak, but that's not going to cause gurgling either.

So all I can surmise is that the problem the OP has had is not the type caused by a leak if changing out the mpc patch cured it, but rather a problem of unstable note production caused by his embouchure for whatever reason, although I find the patch highly unlikely as the true culprit.
 
#30 ·
JL & Jazz is All i read your posts,with extreme concern and i wanna thank you for that.The thinner patch for some reason,helped me a lot to get the right grip on my embouchure! Just got back from my studio after 4 and a half hours of practice.No gurgling at all today,but the right pinky as it was said previously by mr Dadson did not sync well with the left pinky on the spatula.That's a flaw that i want to work on for some time.Of course long tones are part of the routine,i am not allowed to leave them :) !

I understand that's it's a matter of how long you're playin the horn.In the last lesson my tutor though,told me to remove the thick patch.I feel now my embouchure more "rounded" let's say and there's no space for the pinches to get off their position.
 
#34 ·
Maybe it's just your embouchure. You think?

I prefer the thin patches but mostly because the thicker ones can be bitten through by my teeth and that could end up scratching the mpc. The thin B&G ones are basically impenetrable and seem to withstand my teeth really well. But of course it has nothing to do with anything other than protecting the beak from damage.

As patches go, IME nothing can compare with the thin black vandoren ones with the shiny surface that had tiny dots on it. They were totally indestructible and never wore out. I tried to buy some the other day but they are no longer available and my tech told me that's because vandoren stopped selling them a while back because they were bad for business.

No kidding--selling a really good product is counter-productive if you are out to make money and that was/is the bottom line in the mpc patch game as much as any other product merchandising.
 
#36 ·
Probably it's my embouchure that causes the gurgling,soon i ll visit my tech and my tutor and the mystery will be revealed.But whenever i punch accurately the reed,and draw back my tongue the tone quality is much better...thanks again Jazz is All & JL for all your kind posts! I really appreciate them!
 
#37 ·
Sure thing Billy! I still think the gurgling (if it's what I think you mean) could well be due to a leak in your horn. It's possible to 'blow past it' by making some sort of adjustment in how you play, but that's not what you want to have to be doing. Make sure your tech checks out the horn thoroughly. Also have your tutor play the horn to see if he or she detects the same problem.
 
#38 ·
There are guys who are strong blowers who probably have played with small leaks for long stretches between trips to the tech and won't even notice it. They play a few rapid-fire bebop runs and tell you it's fine. That happened to me once when I asked another guy to play my sax because I thought there was a tiny leak causing me intermittent problems. LOL. A good tech with a leak light is the best option IMO. I had 3 leaks in my sax last year and I didn't even notice them because in combo we generally play loud R&B and blues. Maybe if I was a classical player or playing sensitive slow ballads I would have noticed it right away but with the blues and bending notes it gets cover up unless the leak actually causes a harmonic jump. The only reason I found out was because I took the sax in for a different reason and my tech generally checks for leaks no matter what you brought it be done.
 
#39 ·
By the way Jazz is All & JL, after viewing all the stuff in the thread about Joe Allard, do you think that i should go over some books for Joe Allard or i might be puzzled with all this information? I am on sax since the last 3 years,and my aim is to avoid potential "tone" drawbacks! Thanks!!
:)
 
#42 ·
Yep the mystery solved yesterday to my tech's store...there was a tiny leak, but the embouchure surpassed the problem.The hard way's the best!! I am so glad!!!
:)
 
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