Sax on the Web Forum banner

older sax player and weak embouchure

8K views 25 replies 13 participants last post by  DonaldL 
#1 ·
HI,
I'm wanting a bit of connection regarding embouchure. I've been playing for a very long time, but the last 15 years or so I've not practiced much since I've been doing so much teaching. My sound is very shaky and I'm trying to bring back some embouchure muscles. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm doing long tones, mouthpiece exercises and practicing in short segments, but things aren't getting better. Any input would be much appreciated.
 
#3 ·
Re: Re : older sax player and weak embouchure

Yes, that's part of the work out. Very difficult to control anything on those long fingerings. I teach Sinta's book for that area. I'm just wondering if it's possible to get any muscle tone back at my age. (64) Not ready to put the horn in the case yet.

Thanks for the welcome, by the way. Love that picture!
 
#7 ·
Thanks for the encouragement. It's BOTH. My jaw shakes AND my diaphragm is shakey. I've really tried to analyze this...from doing dentist advocated jaw exercises to massaging for possible tmj to being especially conscious of any stress jaw and teeth clenching to tongue position etc etc. I'm just not getting any better. I confess that I haven't been able to be real real consistent with the practice routine. and maybe that's the whole thing.
 
#8 ·
What's your setup? Try starting with softer reeds or a smaller tip mouthpiece. I stopped for 8 years and have been playing again for 2 years. I went down in tip size and that has helped. I'm 78 and my chops are pretty strong now. You have to practice every day, sometimes twice a day to start building your embouchure to what it was. Sounds like what you're doing will work out in time.
 
#9 ·
You teach so you know how to build strength and endurance in the embouchure.
Usually after a month or so of slowly adding time to the practice sessions everything is close to 'back to normal'.
Maybe a trip to your physician to rule out any medical cause would be a good idea?
 
#11 ·
Practice what you preach. You are going to need an hour a day, or at least an hour every other day. It is going to hurt, but 'no pain, no gain'. I despise that 'weakness quiver' when it happens to me. If possible, spend half your practice time on soprano - this will kill you but it multiplies the results X 2. The problem is, your muscles and nerves just aren't what they used to be as far as flexibility and adaptation. Gigs work for me. I had a busy week last week; band practice on Monday, practice with another band on Tuesday, gig on Thursday in a small venue with NO MICS! Naturally the singer had one and the guitar player had his amp, so the three-piece horn section was sucking wind and blowing our guts out - but it worked. Saturday night was a band party at their leader's house, another 'blow it out' night. I just got invited to gig with them on 2/14 but I already was booked with my regular group. You just have to ramp up the pressure on yourself. Do long tones for only 15 minutes at a time, then work on something else. During long tones, when your embouchure cramps up or you can't hold the air seal, do your mouth like a yawn, really stretching the muscles. This always allows you to go right back to it - you can feel the blood coming back into the muscles - kind of neat. And I am considerably older than you, so don't think I'm a know-it-all youngster. I'm actually amazed that I'm still gigging and am making plans for at least five more years.
 
#12 ·
I'm down to a 3 reed and I work them over pretty good with dutch rust. It's good to know that it may not be totally age-related. I can't do anything about that!! I'm wondering about practicing every day. It's pretty well documented that when you work your body out, you give it a rest for a day. So, one day for lower body and the next for upper body. I'm wondering about that for the face. I'm going to do another half hour tonight. I got in about an hour earlier today. Shook all the way through it. It makes it difficult to practice.
 
#13 ·
Hi. Thanks for the response. I saw you earlier and was going to private message you. I have a soprano and I need to put some time into it. I'll try it. I'm assuming the smaller mouthpiece makes the face work a little harder. I'm not doing a lot of gigs. I am in a sequenced duo and the loading and unloading equipment up here in the north is just not something I want to do in the winter. I'm wondering about ramping up pressure. I am also wondering about appropriate rest between playing days. Maybe that idea of resting muscles doesn't apply here. I've never had this problem and my students don't have face problems, so this is new territory. Anyway, thanks for the response...reading it again.
 
#15 ·
You don't say how old you are but I'm going to go way out on a limb and say this is not age related. I also doubt if your dentist is the right person to advise you on this unless your dentist is a fellow sax player. You just need to spend more time in the shed. I can relate. When I was in high school I played a couple of hours a day. I thought I had chops. Then I went into the Navy music program and they sent me to the Armed Forces School of Music. When I first got there I thought I would die. I played in different bands 6 hours per day 5 days a week and was on a 30 hour mandatory. That meant I was required to practice 20 hours per week on my major instrument (sax) and 10 hours per week on my minor (clarinet) in addition to all the band work I did. That equates to about 60 hours per week with a horn in my face. After 6 months of that torture I had chops of steel. I could play all day every day and never get tired. Once I went out to the fleet I still played a lot but nothing like that. In the fleet I had rehearsals and gigs every day but practicing was on me and I was lazy. My chops remained relatively strong but nowhere near as strong as they were when I graduated from SOM. I got out of the Navy 35 years ago. Since then I have gone through cycles of intense practice routines and extreme laziness. When I go through one of my lazy cycles my chops go downhill very fast and my endurance is the first casualty. These days I'm working a good bit and am forced to keep up a good practice routine so that my chops don't let me down in the middle of a gig. I wish I was more disciplined and enjoyed practicing more than I do but it is what it is. I love playing with a band and never get tired of being on stage but the shed is more drudgery than joy for me. All that to say at my age (57) if I skip even one day of practicing I lose ground and have to work that much harder to make it back up. I suspect that's your problem as well. It'll come to you but you have to work for it. Push yourself a little more each day and before you know it you might actually be surprised at how good you can play.
 
#16 ·
This is interesting because I had the same thing - I didn't play much for about 10 years. Was busy doing other things in my 40's., When I started playing more again in my 50's but I was very weak and shaky and didn't sound to good up high. I was bummed. It was a struggle to get it back but I did and now that I'm 61 I have to be pretty disciplined about maintaining my embouchure, more so then in my 20's and 30's. Of course there were more gigs then too. You have to do long tones, harmonics, slow arpeggios trying not to bite as you go up high, you know the routine and take breaks when you are tired. I also I found if I took a day or two off after a lot of practicing and playing here and there it actually helped. Good luck, it just takes more work then when you were in your twenties but then you know more now too.

I second seeing a doc to make sure it's not some other problem. Can't hurt.
 
#17 ·
What about all those 60- and 70- something trumpet and French Horn players? Believe me, the sax embouchure isn't anything near as challenging. I think you just need time.

And for the record, I personally have never really put much pedagogic stock in "no pain, no gain". It's one thing to tax muscles, it's another thing to turn them into quivering masses by stressing them too much.

Another comment and that's about long tones. This is probably controversial, so take it for what it's worth, but I've never put as much stock in long tones as I have in playing melodic studies (Concone for example) where the melodies are slow moving but yet still tax the same muscles. Use these exercises as one long tone that moves and concentrate on your sound. More interesting, more characteristic of what you'd do with those luscious long tones when you are playing in general.

I also like Rascher's "Top Tones" for tone study, but not the altissimo exercises - the first couple of ones and you must read the introductory text carefully. In addition, I'll use the overtone matching exercises from Dave Liebman's "Personal Sound" book, which, I think are Joe Allard's teachings.

Patience. :bluewink:
 
#18 ·
It helps playing with students during lessons - duets etc. Maybe that's not your style but some of the best teachers like Joe Viola have done it. I always enjoyed it.
 
#19 ·
thank you for that interesting response. Incredible experience in the Navy. When I was playing 5 to 6 nights a week I too had chops of steel AND I was crazy enough to go up to a 4 or 4.5 reed strength. I just needed that push back at that time. You're probably right. Since this has coincided with aging, I was afraid that might be it. It has also coincided with less frequent gigging and a lot of teaching. I'm 64 btw. I'm pretty good at sticking with something once I really get my attitude adjusted. I think I need to get a plan in place. I can always lay out practice routines for my students, but it's harder for myself. Anyway. Really appreciate your time. You're in Babylon? Babylon where?
 
#20 ·
Thank you! I was wondering about programming in a day of rest after maybe 3 days of robust shedding. I also am noticing the difficulty in jumping into the upper range. Really starts shaking. Perpetual vibrato and out of tune. I also am a piano tuner and that makes me crazy. Slow arpeggios is a very good idea. I'm weak there anyway.
 
#24 ·
No, this IS definitely age-induced, but it still can be handled. I don't know anything about regular exercise/body-building. All i know is during the period starting in 1966 when I was in an Army Band and also gigging out, I was basically playing from 8 AM til 1 AM the next day. I only stayed in the Army two years but my intense playing extended into the early 1980s as I was in several 'six-night' groups. That was the period of the most intense learning and embouchure development I have experienced - I developed 'lock-jaw' chops. So practicing for an hour a day can in no way be harmful to anyone's embouchure - quite the opposite.
You said you are practicing on soprano - that's good. Every hour on the soprano is like two hours on the larger saxes. Only you and your doctor can know of any physical condition that may be hampering your playing, but assuming there is none, the answer is clear-cut - you have to do long tones every day for about 10 minutes. You can do that twice a day after a month, and you should do it before every practice or performance.
 
#25 ·
As a 69 yr old, I've had similar issues myself, and particularly over the last year when dealing with some health issues causing months at a time when I have't been able to practice at all. I also think your embouchure issues are largely age related as I've noticed how much longer it takes to redevelop my embouchure each time after a significant lay off than even was the case 5 or so years ago. Definitely what helps me most initially is in playing on a slightly smaller tip for a while and/or dropping the reed strength significantly at first.....usually starting up again with a 2 or 2 1/2 strength reed and working back as quickly as am able to my normal 2 1/2 strong or 3 soft strength. This has been the only way for me to get in enough practice time without major discomfort.

So, 'pamodell', you may think about dropping your reed strength at least for a short while. You may even find yourself to be more comfortable playing regularly on a softer reed, 2 1/2 perhaps, rather than the 3's you had been use to. This has been exactly the case for me. Good luck. I feel your pain.
 
#26 ·
As a 69 yr old, I've had similar issues myself, and particularly over the last year when dealing with some health issues causing months at a time when I have't been able to practice at all. I also think your embouchure issues are largely age related as I've noticed how much longer it takes to redevelop my embouchure each time after a significant lay off than even was the case 5 or so years ago. Definitely what helps me most initially is in playing on a slightly smaller tip for a while and/or dropping the reed strength significantly at first.....usually starting up again with a 2 or 2 1/2 strength reed and working back as quickly as am able to my normal 2 1/2 strong or 3 soft strength. This has been the only way for me to get in enough practice time without major discomfort.

So, 'pamodell', you may think about dropping your reed strength at least for a short while. You may even find yourself to be more comfortable playing regularly on a softer reed, 2 1/2 perhaps, rather than the 3's you had been use to. This has been exactly the case for me. Good luck. I feel your pain.
Same with me. I played #3 reeds in college 30 years ago. When I picked up the horn 3 years ago, I dropped down to 1 1/2s to rebuild my embouchure.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top