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Perfecting Middle D

7K views 12 replies 11 participants last post by  MusicMedic 
#1 ·
It is common knowledge it seems that middle D on the bass has a bit on an issue speaking clearly. I was rereading a few reviews of the Selmer style Jinbao bass and it was again mentioned the middle D is problematic. I thought Jinbao had copied the Selmer bass and I haven't heard anyone mention Selmers having middle D issues. With that in mind is there a Bass saxophone that doesn't have middle D issues?
 
#2 ·
The Selmer's do exhibit some stuffiness on middle-D as well. No one complains about it, though, as its trivial compared to the problem on the vintage Conn & Buescher made horns. If anyone manufactures a bass without a stuffy middle D, I would put my bets on that someone being Benedikt Eppelsheim.
 
#3 ·
The Selmer series II Bass does have a bit of an issue with stuffy middle D. Because of the larger physical distance from "correct" or "ideal" vent placement for each note on Bass vs smaller saxes I find certain issues get exaggerated. With proper key Heights, octave pad opening far enough from the pip, and voicing that is accurate for Bass sax playing this issue can be overcome to an extent.
 
#4 ·
From what I gather, Curt and the others at MusicMedic have repositioned and resized the 8ve vents and built and fitted what looks like a triple 8ve vent mechanism on a JinBao SA80II style bass (it has three rocker arms as opposed to just one that most saxes have), so it would be good to see how this works when it's all finished.

On my bass (JinBao) the lower 8ve vent pad has to open by a fair distance otherwise I get hissing from the vent. I've taken as much play out of the 8ve rocker as possible to make it work better as there was way too much lost motion in it originally. I used Teflon and plastic tubing on the ends and the fulcrum of the rocker which has done the trick and the 8ve key (thumb key) still has around the same amount of movement as an alto or tenor.
 
#5 ·
UPDATE: I've recently had good results on middle-D after my repair tech synced the the octave mechanisms properly. The upper was opening ever so slightly when the lower one did. He also wrapped a bit of pantyhose around the lower octave pip as a temporary measure. After the setting up the transition between octave mechanism the middle played better but the pantyhose seemed to really help. I'm going to keep playing it a while before committing to the permanent repair which I believe is installing a splitter in the octave vent.
 
#6 ·
I guess all you know the trick to play middle-D with high-D-key as an 8ve vent instead of the "normal" 8ve vent.
Or to use only the high-D key for playing the middle-D. This sound of the middle-D is much more similar to middle-C/H than the "long"-fingering-middle-D.

It worked on my Keilwerth-Bass and although on my Eppelsheim-Bass.
 
#7 ·
I too am struggling somewhat with this. Of course venting the palm D key is one approach, but I want to know if anyone has direct experience with fixing the underlying problem. Here are some possible approaches, I would like to know if anyone can comment on them from experience.

Lower octave vent - bigger? smaller? tube extend further into bore, or extend less distance into bore? I do notice that compared to say an alto, it seems that the bass sax vent tube is comparatively smaller in diameter.

Lower octave vent - different location? I notice that the location is same on my bassax as on my baritone and tenor, yet the bass' D is very hard to get to speak and the tenor and bari speak easily. The lower vent is between D# and E tone holes, and it's intended to vent notes from D through G#, so it's already a compromise that's heavily biased toward the D side of things (if it was exactly in the center of the range for which it is supposed to vent, I think it would be located across from the F tone hole) Has anyone direct knowledge of relocating a lower octave vent and improving the problem?

Third vent location? Where? How to design the linkage, would it open simultaneously with the current lower vent, as the Yamaha baritones do?

What mouthpiece characteristics seem to mitigate the issue (if there are any)? It seems that my dill pickle bass MP may be "less bad" on this than my large chamber bari mouthpiece. As an aside, the dill pickle MP has to go on the neck about 1" further to play in tune than the bari MP; maybe this is implicated in the problem? If I had a really huge chamber MP, might the "way on the neck" position result in cleaning up the scale dimensions and curing the middle D problem? Has anyone else with more experience seen this, or the opposite?

MRZEL, can you provide details/update on the pantyhose/splitter proposal?

For information, the horn in question is a Noblet, short wrap French style, keyed to high F. MPs tried:

- Geo. Bundy dill pickle style, true bass MP, "woolly" sound with weak projection
- Meyer 8 Bari MP with a small wedge, and chamber hogged out for a past project, not satisfied with sound and intonation esp. in palm keys not so good, no longer using
- Runyon model 88, facing lengthened to ~ 27-28 mm as recommended by Paul Coats, tone fairly bright, middle D extremely stuffy
- King "B" bari mouthpiece, long flat baffle with large chamber, facing lengthened to 27-28 mm, good tone, best intonation of the batch except maybe the true bass MP, can get middle D to speak inconsistently depending on how I voice it (coming down from above it almost always speaks well, coming up from below it's tough and usually splits up to an A).
 
#10 ·
- Geo. Bundy dill pickle style, true bass MP, "woolly" sound with weak projection
Might try a Bari plastic reed on that, maybe H strength rating. I used to use those with classic style bass mouthpieces, makes for a clearer and more robust tone.

The extra palm key gets to be automatic once you're used to it, of course. I'm not sure I don't do it sometimes on tenor, without noticing.
 
#8 ·
The pantyhose trick isn't new. my tech tied a single layer of hose mater around the horn at the octave vent. It is then adjusted so that the material lays flat across the pip with only a single semitransparent layer covering the pip opening. Tech have done this for ages in diagnosing octave pip issues. As to the stuffy "D" I think that is an issues with the design of the horn. My Bari YBS-61 has a stuffy "G" and that's because the octave pip needs to move about 4" up the horn to fix the issue. I've searched long and hard for a reliable solution and I think it's going to be a horn by horn solution. I don't think that any persons best guess is going to help more than having a custom shop take the horn and work it over. I think the pros at the music medic proshop could fix your horn so that it speaks well on the "D" but i think it's going to cost you more than you'd be will to wager. Their custom/repair work is impressive. I know you just want to play it and that D is really buggering you but short of following the palm-D route, which i hate by the way, a mechanical review and repair is in order.

musicmedic.com
 
#9 ·
The middle D on the Eppelsheim bass sax speaks clearly and easily. I'm not sure why or what he designed, but it amazed me when I played it.
I tried a few things on my Conn. Different mouthpieces make a big difference on how well the mid D speaks, with bari pieces being particularly problematic. The original Conn Eagle works the best for a warm sound, and a Bill Street bass mouthpiece is by far the best jazz setup I've found yet.
 
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