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Classical vs Jazz

17K views 75 replies 25 participants last post by  gary 
#1 ·
Just to clarify to anyone who isn't sure or is confused on this issue, there is a very big difference between classical and jazz style of playing. There is not "this style is more classical" or "I tend to sound more classical on this mouthpiece", it is either one or the other.

To be clear, the goals of producing sound between classical and jazz styles are very different:

Jazz - The player is going for a personal sound that is indicative of that individual's personality/playing style/geographic location/whatever. As we all know the jazz sound spectrum is probably one of, if not the biggest compared to any other acoustic instrument. The embouchure is chin pushed up and lip pushed out, no teeth, and the sound production is low to center in the range of where the note sits in terms of pitch (allows for more flexibility).

Classical - The player is going for "the sound" which can very player to player, but they are generally aiming at the same target, so to speak. The embouchure is chin down and lip tucked under, teeth act as a focal point on the reed with the lip acting as a buffer, and the sound production is high in the range of where the note sits in terms of pitch. Flexibility is still there (for vibrato), but other than that the embouchure is very set.

A developed sound in either style is independent (for the most part) and thus requires independent cultivation. A jazz mouthpiece can be played with a classical embouchure and a classical mouthpiece can be played with a jazz embouchure, but it's the embouchure that determines the style, not the mouthpiece.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, more specifically attempting to practice and cultivate both types of playing styles at the same time? Of course any input or disagreements of the above are welcome as well.
 
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#2 ·
I disagree with you vehemently on this. A good embrouchure will produce enough flexibility to play both styles, but phrasing and throat positions are what makes the sound different. Joe Allard taught the same embrouchure techniques to his students whether they played classical music or jazz, and he had students who were successful at both. Good tone production is good tone production. The mouthpiece helps shape the sound but is NOT the sound itself.
 
#3 ·
Ok, Joe Allard is a pretty heavy name to drop. Do you have a personal account of his teaching style or did you read this somewhere? I know he taught many famous classical and jazz players but I'm not sure he instructed his students to use the same embouchure techniques for both playing styles. Can you verify this?

Also, do you disagree with my whole post or just part of it? And are you a classical or jazz player?
 
#5 ·
I studied with one of his students. (I've also studied with a Larry Teal/Don Sinta student and Eugene Rousseau himself.) I play mostly classical music, but I've dropped into a jazz/rock band or two. I disagree with your entire statement. A good jazz or classical sound has very little to do with actual embrouchure, and everything to do with throat position, phrasing, articulation, etc. Embrouchure is just how your lips meet the mouthpiece.

Also, if your position were true, there would be no "classical" players with successful "jazz" students, which simply isn't true.
 
#6 ·
Noted. I think I might have boxed in the jazz embouchure a little too much with the description. However, I feel like what I described above is exactly what a lead alto would be using in a big band setting. I could be wrong though as I haven't done as much lead alto playing as I have with playing tenor in a small combo setting.

Aside from disagreeing (which I'm sure will make up the majority of the replies), maybe include some examples or instructions to back up your statement. I'm trying to create a dialogue, not start an argument.
 
#7 ·
Hmmmm...
Your description of the 'Jazz' embouchure is what I use for playing the saxophone.
Your description of the 'Classical' embouchure is what I use for playing the clarinet.
My 'embouchure' doesn't change much at all when playing any style on either horn, but rather my 'attitude' changes.
In reality there are a multitude of changes within the oral cavity while playing any reed instrument. If you listen very, very carefully to someone playing a classical piece and immediately follow it with a jazz piece the players 'core' sound is pretty much the same.
Mostly because they really don't make any major changes in how they form their 'embouchure'.
 
#8 ·
Well, if you are trying to start a dialogue, rather than an argument, it might have been better to start with a question or series of questions, rather than a bunch of absolute statements. And then when J. Max disagreed with you, and cited to Joe Allard, you proceeded to question him - e.g. "Can you verify this?" And you ask us for examples or instructions "to back up your statement" which sure sounds more like an argument than a dialogue. You are inviting (and creating) argument - setting out a position, and then attacking anyone who takes a different position. That is not the way to get a dialogue.
 
#9 ·
I'm not sure that I understand the point of this thread. Is the OP supposed to be primarily descriptive or normative? That is, does it purport to state as a matter of fact that classical and jazz saxophonists generally use quite distinct embouchures, or is it supposed to be telling us how we should be playing?
 
#11 ·
I'm not sure that I understand the point of this thread.
I think he's just trying to be helpful for anyone who needed help. Not that anyone asked.
 
#13 ·
Just to clarify to anyone who isn't sure or is confused on this issue, there is a very big difference between classical and jazz style of playing. There is not "this style is more classical" or "I tend to sound more classical on this mouthpiece", it is either one or the other.

To be clear, the goals of producing sound between classical and jazz styles are very different:
Guess i must have missed the memo....my goal of producing sound would be to just sound good, whatever style of music at hand.

Furthermore, when you say "but it's the embouchure that determines the style, not the mouthpiece" i'm lost again. In order to learn a certain style i would study things like application of rhythms, phrasing, articulation, sound effects, harmonic devices etc., but first and foremost LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN!
 
#17 ·
I have never really thought there was that much distinction between the two styles. I have focused on tongue and throat position rather than changing embouchure. My embouchure overall stays the same, but my tongue position is dramatically different between to the two styles and my embouchure of course is more flexible when not playing classical.
 
#18 ·
Jazz - The player is going for a personal sound that is indicative of that individual's personality/playing style/geographic location/whatever. As we all know the jazz sound spectrum is probably one of, if not the biggest compared to any other acoustic instrument. The embouchure is chin pushed up and lip pushed out, no teeth, and the sound production is low to center in the range of where the note sits in terms of pitch (allows for more flexibility).

Classical - The player is going for "the sound" which can very player to player, but they are generally aiming at the same target, so to speak. The embouchure is chin down and lip tucked under, teeth act as a focal point on the reed with the lip acting as a buffer, and the sound production is high in the range of where the note sits in terms of pitch. Flexibility is still there (for vibrato), but other than that the embouchure is very set.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, more specifically attempting to practice and cultivate both types of playing styles at the same time? Of course any input or disagreements of the above are welcome as well.
Where are you getting these embouchure descriptions? Neither one describes what I'm doing and chin direction, lip position, teeth, and sound production location as it relates to "where the note sits" are not a part of any dialogues with my teacher. The embouchure I have been learning/using (from Lindeman, originally) is very straightforward and simple and wouldn't change for classical or jazz playing. And, what about Rock and Roll??? Do you have a separate embouchure for that genre, too?

I don't think the sound is particularly different either. It's more contained (what you do expressively) in classical, but not essentially different than jazz, IMO. Why complicate something that can be essentially very simple (one, simple, straightforward embouchure for any conceivable style of music)?

Personally, I think that adjustments to achieve the variety of sounds to fit different genres of music happen elsewhere; the tongue, the oral cavity, the throat, the diaphragm, etc.

Turtle
 
#19 ·
I find the sound concepts (Personal vs "the Sound") very accurate in the original post. However, the original discussion of embouchure may be overly simplified. I would use and do use this description for my middle school students but it's only a starting point. Most of adult players have discovered through trial and error what works to achieve certain sounds and we all know players (both adults and students) that clearly break "the rules" yet produce amazing sounds in both classical and jazz setting. I worked with an older clarinet player who studied with Mitchell Lurie and it turns out that he played with a bunchy chin (ala Jazz Tenor), Sigurd Rascher anchor tongued, and Brecker's hand position was crazy but it didn't seem interfere with amazing technique and tone.

One more item before I sign off. I teach middle school band and have for almost 20 years. I am wonderful at putting together bands but I have to admit there are others that are better 'lesson' teachers. These teachers use the ONE WAY system. There is only ONE REED, ONE MOUTHPIECE, ONE LIGATURE and ONE EMBOUCHURE. For many students this works and off they go to win seats in All-County and All-State. If it doesn't work for a student they either quit or spend MS and HS in the back row. I just can't do it because I know - there are MANY paths. What if someone put Coltrane, Parker, or Ornette into this box. What if some teacher got hold of Jimi Hendrix - it would ruin everything.

The best way to destroy creativity and innovation is through education.:)
 
#20 ·
Jazz - The embouchure is chin pushed up and lip pushed out, no teeth...

Classical - The embouchure is chin down and lip tucked under, teeth act as a focal point on the reed with the lip acting as a buffer...
Noted. I think I might have boxed in the jazz embouchure a little too much with the description. However, I feel like what I described above is exactly what a lead alto would be using in a big band setting. I could be wrong though as I haven't done as much lead alto playing as I have with playing tenor in a small combo setting.
The first alto in my (amateur) big band is a fully classical trained player and he uses what you call a classical embouchure. I'm first tenor and learned to play by myself, but also use that classical embouchure (as described in my study book). The alto player sounds indeed a bit classical while I have a much more jazzy sound (can't play classical at all), so I agree with others who disagree with your embouchure statement :). You can here both of us in >this< youtube clip (alto at 1:12, me at 2:02).
 
#22 ·
The embouchure is chin pushed up and lip pushed out, no teeth....
That's your description of a "jazz" embouchure? I couldn't disagree more. What do you mean no teeth? If you mean no BITING, then fine, but the teeth are still there, resting on top of the mpc, with the lower teeth cushioned to some degree against the lower lip. Some players might push the lower lip outward, but that is not at all necessary. As Bergonzi says, the lower lip can simply be left in its normal position.

But there is no ONE "jazz" embouchure. There is the embouchure that works well for the individual player to allow the reed to vibrate fully and to get a good sound.
 
#23 ·
A lot of "proper" embrouchure is specific to the physiology of the player too...if everyone had the same face, perhaps we could all have the same embrouchure. My teeth used to be a bit uneven on top, so my embrouchure tended to be a bit crooked, and I had to push my jaw out a bit to get the tongue into a good position.
 
#24 ·
Ok, so I'm not getting a whole lot of positive feedback on my definition of a jazz embouchure. Just to set the record straight, I agree with Jerry Bergonzi's definition in the video above if that helps to rectify my previous definition. Also, I do truly believe that there are many ways to play jazz with different embouchures. I was just trying to clarify that there is a distinct line between classical and jazz playing.

So is there anyone on here that is a trained classical player or who is trained in both classical and jazz? Just curious.
 
#25 ·
#27 ·
And to add a further point, I've studied with 3 students of Joe Allards and they all stressed that Joe wasn't interested I style per se- he was concerned with good saxophone playing. This is further reflected by the stylistic breadth of his students.
Good saxophone playing is good saxophone and the principles of good sound are universal. The rest comes from the player and I think sound concept is more important that any embouchure descriptor.
 
#31 ·
The idea of concept was mentioned before. Aside from sound there is playing style which includes the articulation, phrasing, expression, and whatever else there is. If you're speaking a language you need to understand the concepts of the words that you speak with. If you haven't developed those concepts then it might help to have an idea of where they're coming from.

And I get Joe Allard's method. I think that I'm talking about a specific playing style where as he focused on a broader idea of good musicianship and playing concept. I'm not saying that playing with one embouchure or the other will have positive results, but I am saying that the fundamental technique is very different when a player is crossing the line from jazz to classical.

You can play jazz with a classical embouchure if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're playing with a classical embouchure.

So sure, you can achieve that "jazz sound" however you like.

I'm curious though, would you say the same thing about playing classical music?
 
#33 ·
I suppose that was a bad choice of phrase. Embrouchure CAN and DOES affect sound, but only if it is incorrect. If you are forming an embrouchure in such a way that you are not allowing the reed to vibrate as it should, then your sound will suffer. If you're doing it right, it just shouldn't get in the way of your sound.

Yes, I play in various bands. I suppose a wink would have been appropriate there..so here it is...;)
 
#36 ·
Ok, I get what you're saying, but embouchure affects and changes the sound regardless if it is correct or not. A correct embouchure helps to produce the desired result. It changes the way the way the reed vibrates. If the reed isn't vibrating as it should then the sound will suffer, sure. "If you're doing it right, it shouldn't get it the way of your sound", ok.

I'm really confused on the idea of a classical or jazz embouchure. I would think that regardless of musical style or genre, a good embouchure is a good embouchure. As J.Max says above, the reed needs to vibrate fully to attain a full sound and good tone. Again, this is true no matter what style of music you're playing.
No, the trick is to have the reed vibrate the correct way, not "fully". This is very different between the way a reed vibrates with a classical embouchure and a jazz embouchure. A classical embouchure has a much more isolated contact point on the reed than (most) jazz embouchures. The bottom lip functions to manipulate the way the reed vibrates to keep it from vibrating fully. Well, maybe you want it to vibrate fully if your guitar player is turned up to 10.

Yep. I would be very surprised if, at the genesis of sax playing, someone said, "Oh, if you are going to play classical transcriptions in the French army band, you have to use this particular embouchure, but if you're going to be playing in the pit down at the Moulin Rouge, you have to use that one".
I think any conductor of a professional ensemble is going to take notice is one of their saxophones is using the wrong embouchure. IF the style of music calls for something a little more racier then by all means use whatever you think is best, but I doubt The Old Castle has ever been played (professionally) with anything other than a classical embouchure. I've been in several instances where the saxophone section is asked to play with a jazz embouchure by the conductor, but it's all circumstantial. SO why would you be surprised? I don't know... are we talking about different things here?

IMO this thread, while it does have some good observations, is Much to Do About Nothing.
:(
 
#34 ·
I'm really confused on the idea of a classical or jazz embouchure. I would think that regardless of musical style or genre, a good embouchure is a good embouchure. As J.Max says above, the reed needs to vibrate fully to attain a full sound and good tone. Again, this is true no matter what style of music you're playing.
 
#35 ·
Yep. I would be very surprised if, at the genesis of sax playing, someone said, "Oh, if you are going to play classical transcriptions in the French army band, you have to use this particular embouchure, but if you're going to be playing in the pit down at the Moulin Rouge, you have to use that one". IMO this thread, while it does have some good observations, is Much to Do About Nothing.
 
#39 ·
What an amazingly dogmatic post. The idea of this black and white distinction, that a single piece of equipment defines the genre of playing or even sound, strays incredibly far from the reality that each musician is unique and that playing all music, including classical, affords room for creativity in approach and sound, and does not just rely on one simple factor such as embouchure style.

Jazz, especially, so much involves creativity in the sound and style of each performer and how those performers arrive at their style, their individual "voice", that the rules you have defined are essentially opposite to the entire concept of individuality.

The sound of each saxophone player heavily involves the individual mechanics, muscleture, geometry of the mouth, breathing details, and a myriad of other individual factors that each mouthpiece, reed, and horn will sound different for each different player. No one piece in the chain will define the sound as being classical, pop, jazz or any other genre.

My response so far is only about sound, and not style of playing, which equally defines each player. A given saxophonist can have a "jazz sound", "classical sound", "rock sound", "blues sound", "R&B sound", all with the same exact setup and embouchure.
 
#44 ·
As a professional conductor, I can assure the OP that the only thing that counts from the podium is results. I don't care what kind of embouchure a wind player is using as long as the results are what I want.

And if a player does have a problem with his/her sound, I would be more inclined just to talk about sound with the player than actually tell them what kind of embouchure they should be using (rank amateur ensembles excepted). Anyone with any experience knows that there are so many variables to sound production, a conductor is on shaky ground being dogmatic with a player over that.

And BTW - "any conductor of a professional ensemble is going to take notice is one of their saxophones is using the wrong embouchure." Are you kidding me? Do you really think that the average conductor is knowledgeable of "proper" and "improper" woodwind embouchures?
 
#46 ·
IMO you should know better. I don't want to be part of any ensemble with a conductor who is this ignorant of his surroundings. And I'm talking about a professional ensemble, not on with just the "average conductor".

But you're right about what really counting is results. Results are better when the saxophones are playing with an appropriate embouchure.
 
#53 ·
Google images of 'classical saxophone embouchure'. Look closely at the photos.
Google images of 'jazz saxophone embouchure'. They show the EXACT SAME PHOTOS.
Classical and jazz players all mixed in together.
There are a few photos of 'right and wrong' but they look like the 'right' one is the OP's description of classical and the 'wrong' one is jazz...
 
#67 ·
If you Google "jazz saxophone embouchure" you get a few guys with a classical embouchures first. Take a look at the pictures of Chris Potter, Coltrane, or other jazz players. Disregard the pictures from saxophone_guy.com. I don't know why they pop up first.

Googling classical saxophone embouchure comes up with people using jazz embouchures for some reason. Find pictures of famous classical players (Jean-Yves Fourmeau, Jean-Marie Londeix, Claud Delangle, Tim McAllister, Fred Hemke, Eugene Rousseau, etc.) and look at how they play.
 
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