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Tuning

4K views 16 replies 12 participants last post by  milandro 
#1 ·
Ok, so we all know about playing in tune but what do you guys percieve as acceptable/unacceptable regarding tuning, i mean how many cents sharp or flat is acceptable to you? i read earlier on the other thread were the guy was 30 cents sharp, well that's no good so whats ok, 2,3,5 cents??
 
#2 ·
It all depends. Section work requires more attention to intonation than solos. If it doesn't sound wrong on the playback, its okay. What do you think - people are using tuners on you on gigs and recordings? Coltrane and Parker played awfully out of tune, yet that's okay because it fostered 'tension'.
 
#8 ·
It is difficult to judge cents. People can learn to hear beats from different intervals.
In lower pitches a few cents will be barely noticeable because the wavelength is longer. At higher pitches where the wavelength is shorter it results in more beats and you can hear the clash. That is if you have other notes in unison. If not some like to hear things slightly sharp at the extremes of the instrument - but too much just sounds off.
 
#9 ·
I read these words of wisdom somewhere: Playing in tune means playing with a good blend. The readouts on a digital tuner are primarily for practice: developing steady intonation, learning to adjust notes up or down, etc. When you play with other musicians, the numbers just confirm for you that you're initially in the right place in your own tuning ballpark, so to speak. After that, proper intonation is a matter of how your sound matches with everyone else's.

Here's an example: I sometimes use the side C on my alto to raise the pitch of my middle C# a tiny bit. I've confirmed with a tuner that this fingering actually does bring the C# ever-so-slightly into better tune with the rest of the scale. When playing with a band, however, I don't always add the side C. It usually helps, but sometimes I find that the blend with the other saxes is more pleasing if I just use the standard open C# without the side C. Some chords just sound better without my making that personal pitch adjustment. (It sometimes seems that more classically oriented pieces sound better when I add the side C, and jazzier pieces sound better when I leave it out.)
 
#12 ·
Tuning in a box ( illusions and delusions)

I've called this post, although adding to another thread, Tuning in a box , Illusions and Delusions.

I was reading about some new members ( it's a common thing so it's useless to mention whom) and their tuning problems and then I remembered the reasoned guide to tuning that Pete Thomas has published on his site

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-intonation-tuning

It is amazing how much time a lot of people spend on " cold tuning" at home and how very little they learn to play in tune with other instruments ( which is really what counts).

So I decided to revamp this issue and to quote Pete saying:

Tuners are fine for tuning your tuning note to, or for reference: ie as a way to see if certain notes are more out of tune than others. But they should never replace your ears. Playing scales or long notes and constantly watching a tuner may be counter productive, but glancing at it occasionally after starting a note can be very worthwhile to check if you are in tune or not. It's important not to get hung up on perfection.


That is if you don't want to be like someone " tuning" his engine in a garage and never ever taking the car out and see what it does on the track and more importantly how one drives it when on the track with other cars!

I find it funny that tuning is such a great hung up for a saxophone player and that the emphasis to tuning " problems" is always put on the gear.

So your horn, your neck, your mouthpiece, your tuner, to which you spend time tuning, all are no good :) ..........

Of course, all of these things are helping you to tune but given you are not doing anything completely wrong and within reasonable limits the player is the most important tuning device.

It is the player who plays ( and more often than not doesn't) plays in tune.

Playing in tune is obviously also a problem for other wind instruments but brass players see it a lot more as an issue with themselves than it is an issue with the equipment.

The thing is that they MAKE the instrument play in tune because they are the playing implement a lot more than the instrument is.

Just a thought for those who want to buy tuning in a box.

It comes from a Brass musician blog

http://brassmusician.com/tips-for-playing-in-tune/

"Last, and most importantly, any musician must learn to hear the notes they are playing to assess their tuning. Do not take a single word of advice on this page if you cannot hear that it actually makes a beneficial change in your sound. Every instrument and every player is different, the only thing that must be consistent is your hearing. ......."

 
#14 ·
Re: Tuning in a box ( illusions and delusions)

I've called this post, although adding to another thread, Tuning in a box , Illusions and Delusions.

I was reading about some new members ( it's a common thing so it's useless to mention whom) and their tuning problems and then I remembered the reasoned guide to tuning that Pete Thomas has published on his site

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-intonation-tuning

It is amazing how much time a lot of people spend on " cold tuning" at home and how very little they learn to play in tune with other instruments ( which is really what counts).

So I decided to revamp this issue and to quote Pete saying:

Tuners are fine for tuning your tuning note to, or for reference: ie as a way to see if certain notes are more out of tune than others. But they should never replace your ears. Playing scales or long notes and constantly watching a tuner may be counter productive, but glancing at it occasionally after starting a note can be very worthwhile to check if you are in tune or not. It's important not to get hung up on perfection.


That is if you don't want to be like someone " tuning" his engine in a garage and never ever taking the car out and see what it does on the track and more importantly how one drives it when on the track with other cars!

I find it funny that tuning is such a great hung up for a saxophone player and that the emphasis to tuning " problems" is always put on the gear.

So your horn, your neck, your mouthpiece, your tuner, to which you spend time tuning, all are no good :) ..........

Of course, all of these things are helping you to tune but given you are not doing anything completely wrong and within reasonable limits the player is the most important tuning device.

It is the player who plays ( and more often than not doesn't) plays in tune.

Playing in tune is obviously also a problem for other wind instruments but brass players see it a lot more as an issue with themselves than it is an issue with the equipment.

The thing is that they MAKE the instrument play in tune because they are the playing implement a lot more than the instrument is.

Just a thought for those who want to buy tuning in a box.

It comes from a Brass musician blog

http://brassmusician.com/tips-for-playing-in-tune/

"Last, and most importantly, any musician must learn to hear the notes they are playing to assess their tuning. Do not take a single word of advice on this page if you cannot hear that it actually makes a beneficial change in your sound. Every instrument and every player is different, the only thing that must be consistent is your hearing. ......."

Right on! It's took me a long time--including four semesters of lessons in a college music program with a teacher who tried to get me to digest this pill the whole time--to figure out that as long as I had a saxophone that was in reasonable playing condition, the rest was up to me. Somehow I never made the ear training connection. A big part of that was me being a stubborn adult learner who blamed it on everything except my lack of time on the horn and ear training, and had no interest in learning to read music, and solfege and sight singing...who needs that? Those semesters were my first real experiences with section playing, or having to blend with other instruments. I'd picked up the sax a couple years before, memorized some scales, found a rock band (I could sure rip some Clarence lines!), and a funk band where I was the only horn and played most of the melodies. I had no concern or knowledge of what ear training was. Who needs ear training when you can memorize a bunch of slick scales and just push the correct buttons over simple song forms, right?

Those two years at music college were ridiculously humbling and frustrating. I can't tell you how many times I'd go home or in a practice room and stare at my trusty tuner and play long tones perfectly in tune wondering why my teachers (lesson and ensembles) would always complain about my intonation. I was so bad that I couldn't even tell most of the time whether I was sharp or flat when they pointed out that I was out (usually sharp, especially up top from biting to make up for my absent embouchure and air support). It got in my head really bad and after somehow pushing through two years I nearly stopped playing saxophone and seriously considered a fretted instrument where I could just learn the fretboard and use a tuner all the time. Somewhere in the past year or so the ear training and hearing pitches before I sing them started to make sense. I spent a lot of time spinning my heels and staring at my tuner that could/ should have been spent listening, singing, and playing with other musicians...If tuning were done with your eyes, I'd have been so locked in that I'd be boring to hear.
 
#13 ·
You have to develop your ear to tell what is in tune. A tuner is meant to tell you exactly were you are frequency-wise (ie, A-440, et al), but cannot tell you if you are actually in tune with other people. Don't forget, a piano is meant to have equal-temperament, which is what the tuner is meant to measure. So it is quite deliberately out-of-tune with itself, as nothing in nature exists that perfectly. Our ears, however, work on just-temperament. This means that ALL notes of a chord, minus the unison, must be slightly out of tune in order for the human ear to hear it as being 'in tune'. Here is a link to a chart that illustrates this:

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html

Tuner work is important- as others have stated, certain notes on the sax (D,D#,C#,A) have awful pitch tendencies on many horns & must be addressed by every player. This is only a starting point. Once you can get the tuner needle to stand straight on every note & have learned the tendencies on your own instrument (everyone's is different), you must start to apply that in real life situations using your ear.
 
#15 ·
As has been mentioned before on this forum by players better than I - the "Tuning CD" is probably a better and more realistic tool for developing your intonation and pitch rather than looking at a meter. You can "hear" rather than see when you out of tune and what it sounds like when you are. Good tool.
 
#16 ·
I agree with what's been said so far. In the moment, on the bandstand you only have your ears, you can't pull out a tuner and tune each note. It makes sense to train your ears to hear in tune. I think playing along with some type of drone is a great way to do this, whether it's the tuning cd or something else. Of course playing with other musicians is most important because it introduces another variable i.e. the tuning imperfections of the other instruments. This forces you to listen and be flexible enough to make slight adjustments in order to compromise and play "in tune"
 
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