Sax on the Web Forum banner

Super 20 Intonation Problems

8K views 21 replies 14 participants last post by  LowNoteSax 
#1 ·
I just purchased a Super 20 Bari on eBay and there are a few problems with the horn which I knew going in; the neck was previously pulled down but repaired and the lacquer for some reason was stripped. I didn't think that these two things would be a problem on an otherwise great horn (serial #369xxx) so I took a chance. The only problem with the horn is the intonation, it is terrible. I'm wondering if 1) the neck being pulled down 2) the lacquer being stripped or 3) the fact that I'm using a modern mouthpiece or 4) a combination of these could be the cause of the intonation. I know that some horns can be so out of tune that nothing can be done but does anyone have any suggestions on how I can fix this intonation problem? I have 14 days to return the horn so I'd appreciate any feedback, thanks.

BTW I'm using a Berg Larsen metal mpc 120/2 SMS
 
#2 ·
What problems, specifically?

My Zephyr bari is not far away at 358xxx. When I played it often I didn't notice anything, but in recent years it's been kind of a closet queen as I take my beat up Conn everywhere, and last time with the Zephyr I did have trouble playing it in tune. I guess either I used to be tone deaf, or I used to know how to play it in tune and have forgotten. I understand Zephyr and Super 20 baris are about the same, and for that matter you can read that they're not vastly different from the Voll-True bari. Mouthpieces that were working for me were Runyon Custom & Quantum, a not-too-vintage Link STM, some more classical styles like Caravan and Ridenour ... an RPC that I think worked with it, but not totally sure I did much with that combination, the RPC came along about the same time as the Conn. I've been meaning to get back to this issue, as my bari gigs are moving back towards what I think would suit the Zephyr more.
 
#4 ·
I have a King Super 20 alto, serial#369xxx, that I absolutely love!...The intonation on it is great!...something about the tone that I haven't found on any other alto, it's just full of character, plus the palm keys are very fat sounding! Before I got this alto, I tried alot of different brands...Yamaha, Yanagisawa, Keilwerth, had a Conn 6mvii, had 4 different bueschers, including a th&c, tried p. mauriat, selmer mark vi, mark vii, series II, III...I had another super 20 alto, serial#415xxx and the tuning on it was not good!... the upper register would play in tune just fine, but the bottom register was off, and vice-versa, got rid of it.

I've tried a couple of super 20 tenors with a berg ss 120/0 sms, and the intonation was very good with my berg. I think berg's and super 20's go together quite nicely! Next will be getting a super 20 tenor. Maybe the neck on your bari is causing the tuning problem?? I don't know. If it were me, I would send the bari back, and find another one...Good Luck!...Joe.
 
#5 ·
I suspect that it is the mouthpiece. I had a Zephyr bari and a Mark VI at the same time. The VI was great with a wide open FL Link but that mouthpiece was really twitchy on the Z soundwise and intonation was off. It actually worked better with the original pickle mouthpiece that came with the horn. I found that anything more open than about .090" was a chore. Of course the S20 may be different in that respect but it may be worth trying a more closed mouthpiece with a fat chamber.
If the neck was repaired well it should be OK but if mangled, it could be a problem.
 
#6 ·
Forgot to mention that the lacquer should have no change intonation wise. Also if the mouthpiece needs to be pushed way in or hangs on the end of the neck, you may want to experiment moving the mouthpiece around to see if that helps. You will be way off from A=440 but it could answer the mouthpiece question.
 
#7 ·
I suspect the neck, but try some different mouthpieces as Bruce suggests. I would try to find another S20 or Zephyr bari in your area for comparison, or more to the point, try the other neck/s on your bari. It is even possible that your bari does not have the original neck. Bari necks often get lost over the years. Good luck!
 
#9 ·
I just ran my Zephyr bari around on my RPC mouthpiece, and it's OK. If I can play a modern mouthpiece on mine, you ought to be able to play a modern mouthpiece on yours. I will say it might take some adjustment. I have to relax on the upper register, and conversely I have to push the lower register, but as that's what sounds good to me anyway, this isn't a real problem. The combination sounds great, I should add. The King bari has a rich, full low end with that big bell. I wanted something that added an edge to that without subtracting too much, and Ron really nailed it.

Anyway, you can see, given only "the intonation, it is terrible", it's hard to agree on a diagnosis, because that's really not so much a specific problem as a class of problems. If specific notes are off, could be key heights, who knows. General high vs. low problems, more likely mouthpiece related I guess. Etc. Maybe you've already taken it to someone who figured it out, in which case I hope you'll let us know what it turned out to be!
 
#10 ·
I haven't taken it to my tech yet but I suspect it may be both the key heights and the mouthpiece. I'm using a Berg Larsen 120/2 SMS metal and I also tried a Yanni HR #5 and neither has given any positive result. I will let you know how I made out after going to the tech. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions
 
#11 ·
Yes, there's your plan, then...I think that before we say anything about the mouthpiece....the pulldown needs to be fixed and the horn REALLY needs to have a keyheight adjustment and leak check.

Very, very FEW vintage horns (reputation to the contrary) actually have intonation 'problems' so extreme that lipping and embouchure cannot alleviate fairly easily. The 'problem' IMHO, is way, way, way overstated (usually by sellers of contemporary horns). Certainly Kings of this era do not intrinsically have that issue....

After refurbing around 800 at this point, I have to say that the vast majority of older horns which get here (playing or not) have their heights so out of whack that they require a complete readjust. I posit that this is the result of horns getting just enough service to keep 'em going for a few generations and very few, if any, really 'shoot the works' sort of servicings...which need to be done at least a couple of times over a 50 y.o. horn's life, minimally.

If intonation is your issue...it could be you have a true dog...but quite likely....it is the pulldown and the keyheight situation.
 
#12 ·
I just purchased a Super 20 Bari on eBay and there are a few problems with the horn which I knew going in; the neck was previously pulled down but repaired and the lacquer for some reason was stripped. I didn't think that these two things would be a problem on an otherwise great horn (serial #369xxx) so I took a chance. The only problem with the horn is the intonation, it is terrible. I'm wondering if 1) the neck being pulled down 2) the lacquer being stripped...
Hmmm, key heights, stripped lacquer, and bad intonation.

Add one more vote for adjusting the key heights. I'm wondering whether whoever did the lacquer strip just knocked off all the adjusting corks. I saw a similar thing on a student's tenor. No adjusting corks! Intonation issues? Duh...
 
#13 ·
3 things.
first, in my relatively limited experience, Zephyr baris are extremely sensitive to neck pulldown, at least as regards the quality of their tone.

check that the tone hole chimneys aren't messed up from poorly done machine buffing after stripping.

also, i'd try a rico metalite mpc...they just happen to work really well on king baris
 
#14 ·
I actually got my 400k Super 20 Bari back from the tech; complete overhaul.

Before the overhaul pads were worn and didn`t seal; but it was playable from top to bottom with a little patience. Intonation though was terrible, too; completely uneven and I wondered whether it was worth to work on it and spend some further money...:(

Now it is just wunderful, speaks easily (which you would expect after an overhaul) AND intonation is nearly spot on (within 10% without any adjustments). I don´t see any reason to use my 12M any more! What a sound!

Maybe that the neckpipe is the problem of your horn; mine was totally misadjusted, obviously. So bring it to somebody who really knows what to do and you might become as happy and enthusiastic about it like me....:mrgreen:

Mouthpieces I tried with it (all worked just fine):
Jodyjazz DV 7 Bass, Lawton 7starB, Brilhart Ebolin (refaced by Mojo Bari), Lelandais rubber(refaced by HWP/Steamersound)
 
#16 ·
I'm gonna chime in here. The neck must have the original dimensions to optimise intonation. Often with silver necks, the bore gets misshapen over time because silver is a bit softer than brass. There is a ring on the end of the neck that is sometimes missing from old Super 20s. There is a cat named Aaron Bernard who specialises in restoring Super 20 necks to original specs. The procedure is not costly and I've had it done to a couple of horns.

The other issue that can effect intonation is key heights and pads being wrong for the horn. Super 20s should have high action and thin pads with small, or medium, flat resos. Domed resos cut into the air column and adversely effect pitch. These horns were designed to have flat resos. You can't just set these things up as if they're Selmers or Yamahas. Kings are finicky but when they're set up properly, the scale should be as even as any other vintage horn from the 40s-60s. I suppose a MK6 is a bit more accurate and they're certainly easier to set up, more durable and forgiving.

I am now playing a Super 20 tenor #298k in a big band at a Broadway show called After Midnight. http://www.aftermidnightbroadway.com/players.php
We have 5 saxophone players who all play different types of horns and my Super 20 blends well and I have no intonation issues. Granted, I have been a professional saxophone player for 25+ years, but I'm new to Kings as of the fall of 2013.

I did struggle a bit to find an appropriate mouthpiece. I have an old Master Link that works well and a drawer full of vintage pieces, but I've settled on the new Vandoren V16 large chamber. This mouthpiece plays and sounds like the best Link Tone Master I've ever played but with a better scale and more power. It's reed friendly to boot. I don't think I'll ever play my old Florida STM again.
 
#17 ·
I did struggle a bit to find an appropriate mouthpiece. I have an old Master Link that works well and a drawer full of vintage pieces, but I've settled on the new Vandoren V16 large chamber. This mouthpiece plays and sounds like the best Link Tone Master I've ever played but with a better scale and more power. It's reed friendly to boot. I don't think I'll ever play my old Florida STM again.[/QUOTE]
Andy,since amoyemaat has already received some high level advice regarding his S20 Bari problem,can I ask you to say a little more about these V16 tenor pieces?
What was the difference you heard between the different tip openings you tried,I believe they offer a 5,6 and 7,did you choose a 6 by chance?A great tone master{if that is what they play like} would be nice to have in the kit.
 
#18 ·
Just wanted to update everyone on my Super 20 intonation problem. I got the horn back from my tech and it plays like a dream! He adjusted some key heights, did some re-corking and there were some leaks I hadn't noticed and it plays just like a vintage Super 20 bari is suppose to play, beautifully. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and feedback
 
#19 ·
That's great news amoyemaat!...I was wondering the cause of your intonation problems as I have the exact same serial # range as you, 369xxx, though it's an alto and intonation on it is fantastico, it's the best alto I've played among many! Also, it's the only vintage alto I don't have to change any of the altissimo fingerings on, I use the exact same ones as Yamahahaha/Selmer.
 
#21 ·
Dear SOTW readers, belive it or not: I ordered a custom silver neck by Karsten Gloger from the Netherlands and the horn's intonation is on spot!!! Wonderful horn now in combination with an Otto Link STM 7* - even for classical quartett as I played recently! I just can recommend these necks (a also use one for my MKVI low A baritone)!!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top