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A new sax design is born - created by Jim Schmidt - debut at Namm show

36K views 150 replies 49 participants last post by  milandro 
#1 ·
I just finished my 3rd Tenor with the linear chromatic fingering. This one is to be copied and hopefully mass produced. I'll be at the 2014 Namm show jan 24, 25 and maybe 26
Hanging out around or nearby off & on at the Music medic booth #4420
see the amazing new sax below.



Details at:
http://jsengineering.net/saxes.asp
 
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#79 ·
I'm sure he does not "get" a lot of things about coming out with a product, making too many promises, folks losing faith, small production ramping up to larger production step by step, going to shows when there is no product to sell instead of working on product that could be sold, coming out with a new model when he can't get into production with the old model (this really was a bad step for someone who cannot deliver), and the list goes on.....and on......

Small, inexperienced businessmen without good business instincts very often think far more about getting orders than shipping, and about new products that might set the world on fire instead of getting the first products to production. Future performance almost always reflects past performance, and here there is a multi-year history. With the same guy at the helm the prognosis for a nice ramp up into reliable production (either on very very small scale or a bit larger scale) is not good. Very likely, it would only work well if production and decisions about production were out of his hands and his direction.

I have read all of the past posts on this subject. Anyone who doubts what I am saying should do the same.
 
#84 ·
His agenda? Maybe, but you know, I have to let you in on this, even though it looks like I'm performing a public service for purely altruistic motives, I'm really here for my own agenda too. And it so happens that, along with entertaining the trolls here, my agenda includes finding out about stuff like these novel saxophone designs, and I can't think of a more likely way, than to have the designer drop a note here when something's up, a trade show appearance or whatever. If that's routinely followed by pages of stuff like this that is of no interest to anyone, I guess that's fine as long as he doesn't mind.
 
#85 ·
well, if it was for the initiator of this thread (and all the others where announcements like this have been made) it would be a one post alone thread with little information buried under countless other threads.

Every time we post, the thread and its title “ A new sax design is born - created by Jim Schmidt - debut at Namm show “ jumps on the first place of the “ What’s new?” section.
 
#86 ·
...which brings us back to square one again Milandro, as you have predicted it. We're left scratching our heads that someone came up with a new concept of which only 3 experimental pieces were made in the course of 11 years and the latest episode hints at 'maybe' something will come of it...oh well...donnc treats Jim's Sphinx like behavior as appropriate...whatever man...

I'm surprised that no one commented on Ivy Mike yet...
 
#87 ·
Wow...this thread took a nasty turn about one page ago.

Regardless of what one thinks of intention of how this Forum is being used, there are far worse transgressors than Jim Schmidt when it comes to using this (free) chatboard for their own commercial gain.

This is arguably the most exciting invention/re-invention of the instrument to ever come along, IMHO. For me, a player who came to sax after having played strings and brass for much longer periods beforehand....the concept of making sax fingering more logical/straightforward is incredibly attractive....bordering on 'brilliant'.

I would love to get my hands on one.
 
#90 ·
This is arguably the most exciting invention/re-invention of the instrument to ever come along, IMHO. For me, a player who came to sax after having played strings and brass for much longer periods beforehand....the concept of making sax fingering more logical/straightforward is incredibly attractive....bordering on 'brilliant'.

I would love to get my hands on one.
It's interesting that you anticipate a possible personal musical benefit from the Schmidt design; I'd guess that the majority of players here do not. Even as an amateur, I've been playing the clarinet and saxophone for so many years that no degree of enhanced rationality in fingering could compensate for the deep muscle memory I've accrued. I think for me it would be more like learning a new instrument (or making the transition from clarinet to saxophone all over again) than improving my saxophone technique.

Thus, my interest in this invention is more abstract. Would an improved fingering system eventually lead to a higher degree of overall performance skills among the population of saxophonists? Would it make the sax easier to learn, and thus potentially more attractive to young and/or beginning musicians? Would it help power a saxophone renaissance?

At this point, even assuming a Schmidt-designed sax eventually makes it into commercial production, I'd have to predict "no" for all of the above. I agree that there's an appealing logic to basing a key layout on the chromatic scale rather than the C major scale, but I just don't believe the existing fingering system is enough of a handicap to allow for a "dam burst" of creativity and superb technique from widespread adoption of a different system. Remember that there were two reasons that the Dvorak keyboard and other alternatives to QWERTY failed. The primary reason was the tremendous historical inertia and giant installed base of QWERTY. But another reason was that QWERTY, for all its illogic and unbalanced hand demands, did not prevent legions of skilled typists from exceeding 100 wpm. Dvorak was a great answer to a question few typists were asking. Similarly, given the degree of virtuosity already possible on the saxophone, it's difficult to imagine that there's much pent-up demand for a completely overhauled fingering system.

Also, when it comes to new musicians, my view is that the most demanding and intimidating aspect of playing the saxophone is oral, not manual. All those keys may be worrisome to a kid, but beginners quickly discover that basic fingering really isn't that difficult. But developing an embouchure, and tonguing and breathing skills, is challenging and remains challenging even after years of playing.
 
#88 ·
Dear Lambros and Milandro; why on earth would you hold that Mr. Schmidt has any obligation to engage the two of you in chit chat? I am delighted that the announcement was posted here- otherwise I would have missed it and he is offering a unique bit of saxophone innovation of interest to many SOTW readers.

You'd have to be absolutely clueless not to note how many threads here devolve into pointless and frequently mean-spirited bickering oft involving pure speculation and equally unsullied ignorance.

This one, regrettably, seems to be a classic case in point. You're both absolutely free to spout, but others are equally free to blow by your writings with no obligation to read or surely, to respond.
 
#92 ·
Henry, I genuinely find that I don’t deserve this criticism for having simply been saying that if a person comes to a forum to announce a new product and is asked to elaborate he should politely answer the people whom have shown an interest in his announcement.
 
#93 ·
Henry, I genuinely find that I don't deserve this criticism for having simply been saying that if a person comes to a forum to announce a new product and is asked to elaborate he should politely answer the people whom have shown an interest in his announcement.
With apologies to the Dutch if I bungle this- it's been a while, "Nu elck syn sin."

Threads here on SOTW really do resemble flypaper; you touch it again and again hoping to end your involvement and fly off and find yourself further and further embroiled and in the midst of petty controversies which you despise but can't quit bring yourself to walk away from. If you think for a moment, I'm sure you can come up with many fairly well qualified former members (and of course some who were just sax enthusiasts- the core of a site such as this), who wound up mad as hops over truly minor things and who wound up taking their marbles and going home. "Good riddance" one might say, but that in the end the richness of discourse is substantially diminished with a net loss for all parties.

Poor Tobias is a poster child. While he wound up wildly over the top from any number of aspects, he'd have to have had the hide of a Rhino not to take offense at much of the discourse which drove him to madness. And no, I do not remotely support P-ligging...

Why place your other hand on the flypaper unless you're prepared to get covered in goo and still almost certainly arrive at nothing but a squalid mess of verbiage? Overstated, but I can surely see his position. Sums up as; "Here it is with no further elaboration or adornment, you might be interested. Show up at NAMM if you want to look or discuss further."

"If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen." He stuck his head in the kitchen door, made his comment, and then chose to stay out of the kitchen. Fine by me. Not seemingly, by you and Lambros.

Again- no offense intended though clearly some taken.
 
#96 ·
This is certainly true.

Some of Adolphe Sax's saxophone prototypes were destroyed by saboteurs at an exhibition. Then there was the attempted murder: they tried to blow him up in bed, but the explosive failed. Also, a Sax factory worker was killed at the factory door. Many believe the murderer thought he was stabbing Sax.

All this being said, I do wish Mr. Schmidt all the best in his endeavors.
 
#104 ·
I think we got into it pretty good about the fingering system at about page 2 and you would think Jim would say at least something just for the sake of common sense. I can tell you as a guitarist as well that you are not going to effectively play a chromatic, major or minor scale across one string as you would by finding the 4 fret box that Jimmy Bruno teaches so well. the major advantage of saxophone is that the hands, fingertips more accurately, do not have the task of sealing each individual passing tone hole, ascending or descending. What isn't different here is the fact that all digits have to be engaged; on guitar or keyboard, stop at a fret or fingerboard position or press down a key with one finger, you pretty much have your note.
 
#106 ·
It is increasingly annoying to me how people so often attempt to attack the character of a person rather than looking at the product or the problem. If a serial killer tells you your faucet is dripping, perhaps the best course of action is to check the faucet yourself and fix the leak rather than discussing the nature of his (or her) heinous crimes with all who are unfortunate enough to hear you. If the killer had you on their list, you would probably be dead already Just fix the damn faucet!

I applaud Jim in his pursuit of innovation in saxophones and wish him well in his efforts to put his great ideas into action. That is what I call creativity and those who don't have the courage to at least try something new may learn more by listening.
 
#109 ·
I doubt there's a category of inventions where this isn't generally true. Most inventions go nowhere. You've got the right call there, his invention will probably go nowhere, and if he had any sense, he'd just hang out on saxontheweb and scoff at any other proposed inventions. That's what I'd do if I were him! Can't lose that way!
 
#110 ·
LostConn, donnc, et al, I would love to see if it actually becomes something or is it right up there with the ****el engine after it gets produced. Again a very logical alternative design but is it actually better or worse remains to be seen. If it's better it is then a true innovation, if not it is relegated to the curiosity bin, a footnote in sax history; either way, we may actually say we've had first hand accounts of it.
 
#116 ·
Jim Schmidt is the initiator of this thread and may he will come back to tell us about the progress in finding investors in his project.

I am sure that he he will still be able to make one of his unique products. What may have not ben happening, yet, is to have found people who would invest anf then fin a factory that would make it ( to the same or nearly the same specs and standards which he has shown until now at a price smaller than $10.000.

It looks to me that if any of that would have happened, I am in no doubt that we would, one way or other, been told. But we haven't.

Seriously, and I don't mean this in any derisory way, If you or anyone else has the money and wants to invest ( crowdfunding anyone?) in this project, it would be nice to see it making its way to the market.

I doubt that It would ever be a mass product but unique though it is it might sell in numbers great enough to grant a certain return if production were to be in China, supervised by Jim Schmidt himself at least for several years.

This will never substitute the saxophone ( a declining instrument in new production figures and with a enormous circulation of used and old " normal" saxophones) but could attract a trickle of sales.

This is probably the greatest problem.

Is there anyone prepared to invest so much to get so little in return?

Is Mr. Schmidt prepared to pay regular visits to China for the next 5 years?

Would any of this meet the favor of enough people to guarantee any future after the first few sales to saxophone collectors?

The videos are there, all more or less the same and they have been shot on a rate of one to two a year but real news on its production are not been talked about.



 
#119 ·
Since Jim Schimd’s horn has been out there for very nearly 15 years now and it hasn’t revolutionized the world of saxophone yet, mass production will, probably, never happen.


But a limited, boutique production might take off indeed one day.

Maybe Jim and his various associates will gather enough funds to have a Chinese or Taiwanese company produce these horns for them but the level of work that this requires ad the predictable limited market will never make this product cheap, not even if made in a country where labour is not as costly as in the Western world.

Their best bet would be to set up their own operation there.

The main problems, and believe me I’ve worked with Taiwanese and Chinese people in the music industry and outside of it for some time, would be that one person, a very trusted person who speaks well ( and I mean well) both Mandarin and English, would have to be there permanently to make sure the project works and keeps working.


Jim Schmidt would have to be there on a permanent base in the beginning for at least one year, then periodically, meaning at least bimonthly, need to go back for a couple of weeks to check things out.


There is no possibility to give “ blueprints” to Factory X,Y,Z, and expect that they will do what you want them to do. There is no way to protect the technology once it is out there, they will copy it. There is no way to have any quality control other than Jim’s own.

Of course all this is only ever feasible if someone can assess a stedy market of these saxophones running, at least, in the hundreds a year and not only for one or two years.

I am afraid that any investor thinking of this has to add up this whole thing before even contemplate whether to start this project, or not.
 
#120 ·
UPDATE:

Jim's linear chromatic saxophone is still being built. I am a 1/4 partner in this venture and the process has been agonizing slow. The Avatar Linear Chromatic saxophone will be built in Taiwan by the Liang factory. This is the same factory that builds our "Saxophone.com" altos and tenors. The body is the same as our tenor except the body tube is 1mm thick instead of .70mm. The expensive tooling talked about has been built. The solid hardened steel body tube mandrel took the most time because of intonation testing. I have seen many many emails of CAD changes on tone hole locations fine tuning the intonation. Jim is also a perfectionist and when he sees a better manufacturing method during testing he will implement it. The neck, bow and bell have been changed from .70mm to now be .80mm thick because it plays better with more weight. Jim has hired a very capable Chinese assistant designer/toolmaker that has been able to communicate faster and more accurately with the Liang factory. At this point the tooling for the brass tubes is 99% done. The stainless tool jigs for the rods and keys as well are coming along. There have been comments that Jim does not post enough. This is true because all he thinks about is this saxophone. I should have been posting more since about the Avatar saxophone since it is more my job, but as other posters have mentioned I don't even post at all about Saxophone.com. I am to blame for that because I started gigging and had to spend more time with my seven kids. This is currently changing because I have younger more energetic people involved helping us and I will have more time to spend on posting. Like the loyal posters I hope to see the completion of this sax fairly soon. All the best to all of you! --Garrett
 
#121 ·
Good to hear Garrett!

Small point: the "Avatar by Jim Schmidt" link in your signature is dead - it leads to a 404 Page not found error. Would be a good idea to update the link.
 
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