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Selmer Radio Improved Production - an ongoing study

67K views 332 replies 55 participants last post by  Dduspiwa 
#1 ·
Selmer Radio Improved Saxophones - an ongoing study

Purpose: To attempt to determine the duration and makeup of the Selmer Radio Improved Model as accurately as possible.

Method: Positively identify as many examples as possible, ideally with photos for reference and comparison.

Outcomes - to determine the following:
1) Production breakdown between Alto, Tenor and Baritone
2) Production breakdown of Lacquer, Silver, Gold and Custom Finishes
3) Beginning and end of the production for each type.
4) Identify individual production runs within the overall Model run.
5) Identify any developments or changes during the Model run.

Late Radio Improved / Dorsey Disclaimer: For the purpose of this study, all additional Radio Improved horns built after the introduction of the Balanced Action Model are treated separately. For clarification, there seem to be two series of Late RI horns.

Series 1: Radio Improved horns in the 22k to 24k range, stamped as "Radio Improved"
Series 2: Later left-bell horns, not stamped Radio Improved, and generally known as "Dorsey" horns.

Note: This study is a work in progress, so any thoughts and conclusions are subject to change.
 
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#215 ·
Thanks so much for the photos.
This Alto was built in April 1936. It was originally sold to a store in Marseilles, France by the name of Gallarete.
I have seen a small number of early BAs with no front F key but I would think that they are very rare.

I assume that your sax does not have a body number (under the low D tonehole) but would you mind confirming this for me? I have seen some examples of early BA Altos still with the body number, but they seem to be limited to horns before 21,000.

I am trying to track down when the French market BA Altos stopped putting the serial number on the bell (as well as on the back of the body tube) ... but since there were so few made for the Euro market at this time, I am having a tough time nailing it down. The practice appears to have ended sometime between late 1936 and mid 1938.


Could I ask for two more photos?
1) A clear photo of the octave mechanism
2) A close-up front and back view of the bow area (since you commented on the bow length). I would love to compare it with some other early BA Altos.
 
#216 ·
Thank you for the information!

You`re right: no body number below low D, just matching numbers at the bell and under the thumbhook.

The comments on bow length have been from danielstark regarding his Radio Improved, I think.
But nevertheless I took some additional pictures for you.
 

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#221 ·
To add to your overview- I own 2 Radio Improved altos, both found at the same band instrument dealer in Oslo, Norway. Serial no. 20171 has a silver plated body (95% intact original) with lacquered keys and bell interior! (80% intact). Any more out there with this combination? And amateurish extra engraving on bell and neck- most likely first owner- "James Makin". Serial no. 20190 is gold plated with about 75% original finish intact with the rest bare brass. It too has extra engraving- on the bow-to-bell joint- "FREDRIKSTAD MUSIK HANDEL"- very professional looking - most likely the original importer and dealer, indicating that this horn has most likely spent its entire career in Norway. I have owned both BA, SBA, and Mk VI Selmers, but prefer the old fashioned pinky table of the RI. My other horns- Conns and a Yani SC 902, all have the old fashioned table with its nice short and precise throw.
 
#222 ·
Thanks Norgemark,

According to the Selmer Paris Archives, both of your horns were originally shipped to Selmer London in February 1935.
Engraving and finishing would have occurred in London.
The British engraving was sometimes lovely and other times ... not so much.

No, I have not seen an original Selmer finish with silver plated body and lacquered key.
Is there any chance that the keys are gold plated?
I would love to see some photos of these horns if you're willing to share.

Also, there should be a body number on both of these Altos ... just below the low D tonehole.
This body number should be close to 14,000 (give or take a couple hundred numbers)
There may or may not be a letter after this number.
 
#223 ·
Yes, these both have the British agent/ London stamp under the serial number, and both have lovely engraving, although different from each other. I am not very good at internet technique, but if I learn how I will try to send some photos. 20190 has body number 14114, and 20171 has 14120. As I take a good look at the 2-tone horn I could not rule out that it could be gold plate on the keys. The nature of the wear, especially in the bell, has always made me assume it was lacquer. I will get in touch with my tech and have him take a look at it.
 
#225 ·
I have a wonderful playing Selmer New Largebore, Tenor, Ser#13,XXX. I don't believe it ever had a lacquer . I am just curious on what the official designation of this great horn is, I am told it is the first of the Super Saxes, on one directory the serial # lists it as a cigar cutter (no-way). I don't believe many if any cigar cutter tenors for US market were even made. Thanks for any input. Bruce Brennan
 
#226 ·
Hi Bruce,

Based solely on the serial number (13,xxx), I'd guess the following:
- Your tenor is not a Super. The SSS stamp was not introduced on the Tenor until about 17k.
- Your tenor does not have any of the features associated with the Super, such as the reinforced neck receiver, updated octave key mechanism or redesigned low B/Bb guards. These features were added to the Tenor between in the early 14k range.
- Your tenor is not a Cigar-Cutter, as it likely does not have the cigar-cutter octave mechanism. There were a very small number of Tenors between the 17k and 19k serial number range which do actually have a Cigar-Cutter octave mechanism, but these were produced for the UK market, as well as a couple for the European market. To my knowledge, there was only one example of a Cigar-Cutter Tenor built for the US market.

The "Large-Bore" model applies to roughly the serial number range of 8k to 14k.
For the Altos, there was a change in the size of the bore at the neck receiver, but it appears that there was in fact no change in the tenor bore at this time.
So, your tenor fits into the range known as the Large-Bore Era, even though it would appear to be virtually identical in design to a Modèle 26 Tenor.
 
#227 ·
Douglas, Thank you so much for giving me the real data on what my horn really is, I was lucky a few years back to find a shop that actually had the B &Bb triangular guards which I had a tech affix. For your database the serial number is 13,061. Should you need it. I plays so well. Thanks again, Best, Bruce Brennan
 
#229 ·
Hi Doug, I was just going to write you on the error of my serial number! THE PROPER NUMBER IS# 13,091. I searched all over the low "D" area and there is no other numbers ? The horn is definitely correct as to description you gave for a Largebore. The Bell has the SElmer typical for those days SElmer signature, 4 Place Dancourt, under that is the Henri Selmer logo, under is depose-under that the serial# No 13091-under SOLE AGENTS under US &CAN=under= Selmer triangular symbol that appears to have "Statue of Liberty'' with Elkhart Indiana within. under that=Reg.US Pat.OFF under= made in France. I hope this clarifies the investigation. Best, Bruce Brennan
 
#231 ·
Now that is a mystery, I used a mag/glass too, especially where the cushion from the low C# strikes the body. There is no sign of any removal ( I'm retired NYPD Detective, and have seen many changed numbers on things). Your phot looks exactly as it is on my horn. As I said, I had a low B &Bb triangular guard affixed to the horn from original new stock. I don't know what the newer octave mechanism looks like I have a pearl and a brass OK. (definitely no cigar cutter). I don't know what the newer neck looks like as mine has the old selmer logo between the pip rod. Maybe because it is a US_Canada product?. The number (serial) is authentic, definitely never tampered with. I don't think it ever had a lacquer. I know the background of the owners back to about 1950. I got it from an estate from a friend who had a music store, there also was an Alto Selmer Modele26. I think he still has that horn if anyone out there is interested I will contact him, as he still lives on Long Island NY. Again, Doug, Thanks for your wonderful data. Bruce Brennan
 
#232 ·
MYSTERY SOLVED: Sorry all for my not being as good a I thought I was ! I realized the horn had a lot of dark PATINA, and after seeing exactly where your horn's numbers were located, I got a soft brush and cleaner and removed the patina. The horn has FOUR BODY NUMBERS: 5710. This was a tough case. Does this shed any light on the horn ?, according to selmer nos. It was made in 1930?. Thanks again, Bruce Brennan
 
#233 ·
Hi Bruce

Thanks for finding the body number.
I have been building a collection of serial / body number pairs in hopes of learning more about Selmer production methods in the 1920s and 30s.

The body numbers appear to be an inventory management number (to control the production of the instrument before the body and the bell are attached) Once the serial number was moved from the bell to the back of the body, the body numbers were no longer required.

Your saxophone was indeed made in 1930. It was originally sold to Selmer USA and shipped from France in July 1930 as a bare brass, unengraved horn.
 
#238 ·
Douglas, just found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sel...140333?hash=item361536b32d:g:bzwAAOSw32lY2DuU

Early RI, or late Super? Decided to not read through the 12 previous pages to find out if this has already been covered, but would it be considered a RI if there's no "Radio Improved" stamp above the Selmer logo on the bell? Also, it has the geared octave mechanism. Didn't all RI's have the later "ball and joint" mechanism? My Super(s) have geared and my RI alto has the "ball and joint" (for lack of a better term) type.

Best....
John
 
#239 ·
Hi John,

To answer your question ... if it did not have the "Radio Improved" stamp, it is not considered and RI horn.

But ... this horn is a Radio Improved.
Although it is difficult to see, this horn does have the "Radio Improved" stamp on the bell.
(looking at the 4th photo, the stamp cannot be seen, but a close look at the 6th photo reveals the word "Radio")

No, All RI's did not have the later ball and joint mech.
The first three RI Alto production batches did have the Geared Octave mech, which includes RI Altos up to about #19500.
This alto is from the second production batch, which ran from #18977 to #19084.
 
#242 ·
There is a Radio Improved Tenor with Conn-style Naked Lady engraving. It has sold several times over the last 5 years.

The first listing I saw (in 2013) said the following: "This saxophone was sent to the Conn factory in 1941 where Conn then relacquerd the horn, gave the horn the full 30m Naked Lady engraving on the back side, overhauled with Conn Reso pads and then given a Conn case and shipped."
 
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