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King Super 20 ..the best

38K views 44 replies 27 participants last post by  buddy lee 
#1 ·
My Series 2 Super 20..I think it has to be the best tenor saxophone I have ever played /owned..I never fail to be impressed by it's sheer mojo..and I find I have to work so much less on my sound than on my V1 which I've played for years. The King is just all tone. I have owned 2 Kings before. The 1A had a great sound but it was a little dark for my tastes and the intonation was quirky..the palm keys notes were very vague and hard to centre invariably sharp. My Series 2 is on the right side of brightness for me but still fat and complex .and the resistance and intonation are really predictable ..It has for me the classic King sound heard from early Griffin to my favourite Jon Smith. A keeper I can't see me letting go of this horn.
I really would like a baritone with the same ballsy sound...I love my V1 but I had a shock when I tried a Martin...the tone was outstanding and leapt out with no effort. The same when I tried a Buescher THC alto... I feel like I've been missing out all my life.
 
#2 ·
When I was ready for my first pro sax in 1973, my teacher recommended that I get a Selmer Mk6. I paid $675.00 for a new Mk6 from Monti's Music Center and I played that horn for 20 years nonstop until it was stolen. A freind loaned me a Super 20 and it wasn't love at first blow. The King's scale blew different and it's ergonomics weren't as good as the Selmer's. I bought the S20 because it was cheap in 1993 and I got to work on it. I got it overhauled with BA resonators and I got the first Sugall mouthpiece model that was designed for Sugall by an Austrian maker. It took me 6 months to get fully used to it but in that time my low end notes became better, my altissimo notes were screaming and my overall tone was better. I still have the same Super 20 and I bought a Silver Sonic around 98. I've tried Selmers and I really like them but for me the S20 is the best tenor sax model ever made. All the classical players in the seventies and most of the jazzers were playing Selmer then and the fact that they were so locked into Selmer it eventually killed off the Super 20.
 
#3 ·
My Series 2 Super 20..I think it has to be the best tenor saxophone I have ever played /owned..I never fail to be impressed by it's sheer mojo..and I find I have to work so much less on my sound than on my V1 which I've played for years. The King is just all tone.
Oh, just stop rubbing it in :bluewink2:

...happy you've found each other really Mike. Enjoy!
 
#5 ·
I have played side-by-side with outstanding Mk VI players, but the S20 blows them away. I have never played with the legendary Jon Smith (Edgar Winter, Toto, many others) but have met and talked with him many times since we're both from south Louisiana. Jon has always played a S20. I have a 1969 Silversonic Tenor and a 1963 Silversonic Alto. Both horns are adaptable to many styles of music, but it all depends on the setup and how you play. Most S20 players that I know, go for the open MCs...120+ with the hard reed. The S20 has a brighter, more focused tone than most saxes... About 10 years ago, I tried out a Selmer Reference 54 and a Yamaha Custom 875 from WWandBW. Using various mpc, lig, reed combinations, neither performed as well for me as my S20. That's not to say that other players would not have had a similar result, but I found that the S20 works best for me. That said, my back-up tenor is a Selmer SA80 Series II; my backup alto is a Crescent (Just Saxes) which is a great Chinese-built horn. My Bari is a Yani 992. Set ups for each:
-- Alto - Runyon Metal Spoiler 12, Rovner EDII lig, Bari Gold *H reed
-- Tenor - Brillhart Level Aire 9, Rovner EDII lig., or Theo Wanne 9/lig, Bari Gold *H or Fibercane H reed
-- Bari - Brillhart Level Aire 9, Rovner EDII lig, or Otto Link 7, Bari Gold* M or Fibercane M reed

The MKVI is the Holy Grail for many sax players. I talked to Milton Lewis (Rockin Dopsie's sax player a couple of weeks ago) and he sounded awesome on a 1969 MKVI and the neck had been severely damaged / repaired with some liquid steel compound. Most of what sax players look for cannot be found as much in the horn, but more in the setup, and even more in the technique. For me, there's no sax better than the S20 Silversonic.

I have a spare SA80 Series II neck that I offered to Milton, but I wonder if it will fit his MKVI....Any answers to this question?
 
#34 ·
I have played side-by-side with outstanding Mk VI players, but the S20 blows them away. I have never played with the legendary Jon Smith (Edgar Winter, Toto, many others) but have met and talked with him many times since we're both from south Louisiana. Jon has always played a S20. I have a 1969 Silversonic Tenor and a 1963 Silversonic Alto. Both horns are adaptable to many styles of music, but it all depends on the setup and how you play. Most S20 players that I know, go for the open MCs...120+ with the hard reed. The S20 has a brighter, more focused tone than most saxes... About 10 years ago, I tried out a Selmer Reference 54 and a Yamaha Custom 875 from WWandBW. Using various mpc, lig, reed combinations, neither performed as well for me as my S20. That's not to say that other players would not have had a similar result, but I found that the S20 works best for me. That said, my back-up tenor is a Selmer SA80 Series II; my backup alto is a Crescent (Just Saxes) which is a great Chinese-built horn. My Bari is a Yani 992. Set ups for each:
-- Alto - Runyon Metal Spoiler 12, Rovner EDII lig, Bari Gold *H reed
-- Tenor - Brillhart Level Aire 9, Rovner EDII lig., or Theo Wanne 9/lig, Bari Gold *H or Fibercane H reed
-- Bari - Brillhart Level Aire 9, Rovner EDII lig, or Otto Link 7, Bari Gold* M or Fibercane M reed

The MKVI is the Holy Grail for many sax players. I talked to Milton Lewis (Rockin Dopsie's sax player a couple of weeks ago) and he sounded awesome on a 1969 MKVI and the neck had been severely damaged / repaired with some liquid steel compound. Most of what sax players look for cannot be found as much in the horn, but more in the setup, and even more in the technique. For me, there's no sax better than the S20 Silversonic.

I have a spare SA80 Series II neck that I offered to Milton, but I wonder if it will fit his MKVI....Any answers to this question?
I'm in Baton Rouge too!!!
 
#6 ·
If the King Super 20 alto is setup like many Selmers I've seen with domed large resonators, you're going to have a loud sax that could rip your head off with intonation so loose, it's like trying to ride a thoroughbred calmly down the country lane.

Put smaller flat resos like they originally came with, those altos lock in with a flexible pitch but great intonation. Also the tone warms up yet still has that grit and edge that gives them that unbeatable tone for jazz and rock.

The tenors are more forgiving to different setups IMO.
 
#7 ·
If the King Super 20 alto is setup like many Selmers I've seen with domed large resonators, you're going to have a loud sax that could rip your head off with intonation so loose, it's like trying to ride a thoroughbred calmly down the country lane.

Put smaller flat resos like they originally came with, those altos lock in with a flexible pitch but great intonation. Also the tone warms up yet still has that grit and edge that gives them that unbeatable tone for jazz and rock.

The tenors are more forgiving to different setups IMO.
I've been a King convert for a few years now. I have my series 1a alto and tenor set up with small-flat resos. The thing is, the tenor has a scale just as good as any Selmer I've ever owned but the alto has a very wonky scale that really only works with certain mouthpieces. It's quite problematic but I believe that the neck is to blame. If I use a series 2 neck, the pitch is much better in the upper register. I believe that's because the octave vent is in a better location on the series 2.
 
#13 ·
Playing with the King, I own two Super 20's, They both crapped out at the same time? My luck, finding Mark Aronson to do set up on the horn and I just learned he has a time for my other horn in about 30 days.What I got back was a sound machine, the horn vibrates and resonates, the notes pure, leading me unto new pathways of wonderous sounds. I knew the King was a good horn, but I never had the thing light up my passion like it does now. I'm just a closet player.... but just had to share the excitement my horns bring to my life. If you have a good horn, get it set up by an expert like Mark Aronson, the results for me were amazing.
 
#14 ·
I can't resist adding my 'King feelings' to this. I was lucky to be offered a Super 20 and I took it in primarily to restore it and sell it but never expected what happened after that. I have played and restored a good number of vintage horns including some of the modern Yamahas and I liked a lot of these horns each for its own features and strengths. But nothing prepared me for when I decided to 'try out this super 20' in its asis condition. I spent an hour with and I must admit I haven't come across anything like it. And please realize this particular one isn't any sort of 'real playing condition' but can just barely made to play if you clamp down your paws real hard to overcome the effects of some of the leaks. The experience was OUTSTANDING. The flexibility of tone, the overtones, the feel of the music and the sensations created and able to create.... No other horn I have played so far came close. the tones that weren't hampered by leaks were clear, uniquely responsive able to be modulated into anything you want to express. When you sub the lower register it makes your 'hair stand on end' with sensuality... when you scream anything in fortissimos it makes the roof and rafters shake....When you blow in altissimo you have to get worried about the window panes. this horn does and play EXACTLY what YOU feel, it is an amplifier and allows you to express your inner soul no matter what that may be. NO limit imposed on you by the horn. In fact My particular horn seemed to keep asking: 'is that all you got?'... I can do much more... Just try me... Luring me into realms even I didn't know I had in me. And so we went... till I realized that I didn't do all the other errands and things I was supposed to do. Doesn't that sound like you found something you really love.... something that makes you forget about all the mundane and grind... I can't really think anything better to find in a horn. It didn't even upset me to be hampered by the leaks because even those that had trouble and sounded 'stuffy' etc. were still above 'normal' except of course when 'they didn't respond at all' because I failed to 'clamp down' my paws on the keys. But this hour with this 'handicapped lady' made me realize what a dream it will be to fly with her when she is fully set up and only needs a gently touch from key to key to play my tune. Express my soul...

I have a very strong suspicion that I have 'found my love'... I sure sound like 'I am in love'....this isn't just 'a keeper' but rather THE keeper...

If you haven't played one of these do yourself the favor and play one. Experience the reason why so many players swore and still swear by this type of horn. Find out why some call this horn the "the Selmer Killer'. None of the Selmers and that is Mark VIs included could even come close. IT is truly amazing and outstanding. By far the best vintage and for that matter any horn I have played yet.

I still think the Martin's are AWESOME HORNS. So are many others I have had the fortune to have had opportunity to play. Each is special. I have not given up my liking for them. But this SUPER 20 is a totally different kind of horn. Nothing compares to this particular Super 20 which isn't even one of the early ones but an early Series V made already in East Lake.

It has everything, it has the dark soul of a Martin, the finesse of a Selmer, the agility of a Yamaha, and the sheer power of Conn but can be played quite proper like a Buescher if you so desire. But that takes a lot once you put your paws on this horn. At least for me. It awakened impulses to play far from 'proper' not even I knew I had but only had dared to dream of. And now I played them. What a sheer joy. I don't want to go as far as saying that the 'horn made me play like it' but I would certainly claim that it 'prompted me to come out' like no other horn ever had.

We are all different, and so are each horn out there. but I believe these Super 20ies have been made for some of us that already know and others that didn't know just like me a couple hours ago but if you are lucky like me to get your fingers on one that 'speaks to you' like this one did enjoy it.... Hell, I even had thoughts to come out of retirement and get off my bench and go out and start playing in public again. ... wouldn't that be something....

So this is my contributions to this thread of 'WHY THE SUPER 20ies ARE THE BEST'.... Yes I am prejudiced and I am new in love with this horn... but this seems to be a kind of 'true love' found.... And so we lived and played happily ever after... :) Cheers to you all. And may you all find the horn of your dreams.
 
#15 ·
Been a while... My tenor continues to blow me away Series 2 ( with engraved pant guard). I just made an album ..a straight ahead soul funk album with a lot of section stuff mostly baritone sax ( Mark VI low Bb Theo Durga 8star and 3 plasticovers) 2 tenors ( The S20 and my 66 Mark VI with a Theo Mantra 8 and Java 21/2 reed or Fibracell 3) and a trumpet player overdubbing. On some tracks I played alto if there was no trumpet for a JB's vibe and I used my Mark VI or my Series 2 S20 with a Theo Mantra 7 and Fibracell 3 reeds. There are several flute and alto flute solos and one soprano sax solo ( Mark VI with Theo Gaia 2 and Rico Royal 3 reed). The album is just going to master.

I'm still experimenting with the S20 series 2 alto.My VI which is a 1963 model has better projection and a bigger sound it seems. I had it repadded here in the uk by my usual excellent guy . Somehow it doesn't have the mojo or instant explosive response of the Series 2 tenor. I have a couple of pieces I want to try...Meyer based. I would like to have it set up by George Bunk at Sax Quest who did my tenor and my Series 1A tenor I had before which was also outstanding.

I did a gig recently.. I had been rehearsing all week using the S20 tenor and for some reason thought Id play my VI on the gig. I tried it and quickly went back to the S20...no comparison... and my VI is a mint 1966 example. The King is better for my purposes. The other sax player on the gig was playing a Ref 54 alto with a Dukoff.... My S20 tenor just dwarfed it into none existence. I was using a 115 Shiva at this point.
 
#22 ·
I'm still experimenting with the S20 series 2 alto.My VI which is a 1963 model has better projection and a bigger sound it seems. I had it repadded here in the uk by my usual excellent guy . Somehow it doesn't have the mojo or instant explosive response of the Series 2 tenor. I have a couple of pieces I want to try...Meyer based. I would like to have it set up by George Bunk at Sax Quest who did my tenor and my Series 1A tenor I had before which was also outstanding.
My experience with the Super 20 altos as well, more challenging to find one with a great sound. I played many that weren't inspiring or could just only do one thing in terms of sound, but then found a series III that I liked. Played it a while and got a little tired of some quirks, had Lee Kramka set it up and fell in love with it again. For some reason, a Lawton B worked better for me on this horn than my various Meyers.

Super 20 tenor...fuggedaboutit...
 
#16 ·
I'm lucky enough to also own a series 2 Super 20 (325k serial) and can attest to all of the above. I do though tend to switch back and forth between it and a 111k Mark VI. They both have their own "thing" going on, I can't say that one is better than the other, they're just different. I currently play a "Floridated" STM NY and/or a Chris Potter Legends piece, but am considering trying to find a nice lower-baffle (a 2 maybe) Berg on it to see what it brings.
 
#17 ·
I play on a Super 20 also, an alto, 369xxx, I think it's a series III, I really don't care what series it is, as long as it's not around 300xxx or so. I did try out a 300xxx Super 20 tenor that a local repair tech was selling. The table keys, the way that they felt, were not good on it, not smooth like the Series III horns.

Anyway, mine came from Saxquest with a new overhaul and it plays/sounds just like warstone in post #14 describes his. I've played it along side my keyboard, a brand new Yamaha Montage which plays perfectly in tune, and the alto matches up with it as perfect as can be.

It really is the best alto I've played on, and I've owned quite a number of alto's, also it seems to stay in adjustment for quite awhile as well...I love this little horn!

I also had a beautiful Conn 6m vii, 285xxx, in great condition with a new overhaul, a great sounding alto, comparable to my King in sound, that I purchased from Gayle of vintagesax.com and I really liked that alto a lot, but unfortunately the altissimo on it was not easy to play at all, so because of that I had to send it back to Gayle. My super 20 alto's altissimo is easy to play, it play's in tune as well.
 
#18 ·
Cool... Yes the horns before the Series 2 have a little finger mech that is heavy. Great sound..darker than my Series 2. I just need to get more juice out of my alto. I have a bunch of new pieces to try so I'll see what happens. My tenor plays great with anything Link type pieces to high baffle Berg/ Guardala type pieces. It just projects and responds like crazy.
 
#23 ·
Yes I hear you... seems a few guys play S20 tenors but play VI altos. I do like the feel of my alto so I'm going to persevere. At least I can AB it with my VI with the same piece and reed. One of the best ever altos I played was a THC Buescher. I was looking at altos for students pre the internet just through local advertising. This horn wasn't pretty but it wailed ..just instant. The older guy selling it got really excited and said he used to fill the City Hall Ballroom with sound and I believed him...that horn had serious mojo. The student however ended up buying a pretty Yana. That was a nice horn too but the THC was something else. I was just playing a stock Babbitt Meyer 5M but the piece was irrelevant on the Buescher.
 
#25 ·
I have owned five s20 alto’s , presently I have two series ii altos. It was interesting reading the various experiences of finding the right horn .All of the Kings I have owned have been interesting sounding horns with a lot of character, as with other brands like Selmer BA’s,SBA’s and mkvi’s , I have noticed big differences in the voices of the Kings, even within the same serial range they can have widely different voices. The two series ii altos I presently have are from the same year of production, one is very focussed and has a pretty quality to it’s tone while the other is bright and very spread, both have lively and interesting voices, but one is quite wild .
I believe the set ups are very important on these horns, as the intonation on my horn with thicker pads with big resos is quite erratic where as the other series ii is spot on except for a flat low C#. The series i and iii’s I had were terrific horns too. Mercifully for me, I like the sound of my favourite series ii alto more than the silver sonic altos I have played, but of course that is just my limited experience, as there are hundreds of incredible ones out there, I just haven’t played them.
As for mouthpieces on these King altos, my favourite is a Ted Klum NY 6—his version of the Meyer Bro, recently I have tried the RR Meyer Bro copies and I think they are very good authentic reproductions, but the Klum has a refinement I enjoy. An s20 and a Meyer Bro is one of the special setups for alto.
 
#26 ·
Yes I hear from Brian at Getasax that the Klum NY is pretty special on the S20 alto. Brian even has his own facing of his fav Meyer for sale. I have tried a few Ted Klum pieces over the years with varying success. Maybe the facings don't suit me. I also guess it varies who made the piece. My last " Standard" Link type tenor was very resistant and seriously hard work to play. I sold it to a player on here.
 
#36 ·
I have a Super 20 tenor, 367xxx, arriving at my house next Tuesday:mrgreen: from the east coast to Cali...hopefully she won't be harmed from all the back east snow:evil:...She'll be paired with a Florida link #8:)...and will look good next to my 369xxx Super 20 alto!:bounce:
 
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