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Dolnet alto with confusing details

7K views 21 replies 4 participants last post by  soybean 
#1 ·
Hello and greetings to all at SOTW. I'm a total newbie, both to the site and to saxophones. Although I can manage a few notes on a clarinet I've never played a sax in my life, but have always been fascinated by their look and their sound. So when I saw this alto for sale in a flea market in France last week I had to buy it!



As you can see the silvering is in a bad state, and the springs and screws are rusted. Even I can tell some of the pads need replacing. However, mechanically it seems pretty good. I'm taking it to a repairer next week to see if he thinks it is worth spending money on. I'm not too bothered if he says no - at the price I paid for it I might even have a go myself as a total loss would not be a big problem!

I'm posting because a couple of details on the sax don't quite stack up - 'Universal' is engraved on the bell so I assume that's what it is. However, the serial numbers for the Universal range generally seem to be 5 or 6 figures long, and this one is 1889. Secondly, why is the brace circular instead of diamond shaped? As far as I can tell it looks original.

I'd be really grateful for any suggestions and will post again when I know what the horn's future is to be!
 
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#2 ·
Universal and Studium were the student and intermediate (so to speak.....in any case the cheaper lines) models of Dolnet. I don’t know that anybody really knows anything for sure about Dolnet serial number and what they really meant (I am very surprised that you seem to know ) their archives appear to have ben destroyed and to my knowledge extrapolations (based on some known purchase dates) are only anecdotical but there are no facts to support a solid chart.

I’ve personally neve seen (or I don’t remember that I have seen) this brace but you never know, maybe it was briefly used in their factory in Mantes ( Dolnet had a factory in the same place where the Selmer factory still is) being inspired by Selmer (but I doubt it) or it had been changed at some point in time by a technician during a repair.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for your reply, milandro. I didn't realise the Universal was a student model, I had assumed (only because I read it somewhere) that it was simply the model that came after the M70. And then I've seen pictures of an M70 for sale (at least that was how it was described, and it included 'M70' in the serial no.) that had 'Universal' engraved on the bell... Is it any wonder I'm confused!!

I'm still intrigued by that low serial number, but if as you say it is pretty meaningless then I guess it's going to be impossible to date with any accuracy.
 
#4 ·
It is not meaningless, but nobody is sure of the meaning of it , the same applies to the letters in Dolnets serial numbers.

Dolnet made also other woodwinds and brass instruments and they all seem to belong to the same serial number sequence which makes extrapolations ( from known purchase dates) very difficult.

After the M70 the company closed......it was their Swan song.
 
#8 ·
seriously, I think that there s a remote possibility that they bought some parts from some some companies , after all Grassi was already copying that brace and apparently Selmer were never successful at stopping them doing so.

By a closer inspection your connecting ring brace appears to be smaller in size than Selmer’s while it could have been a Grassi size (they were smaller than Selmer’s ). On the other hand making a connecting ring is hardly a work of high technology.

However IF they did this they did it for a very limited amount of horns.
 
#10 ·
Cold be, but there were few manufacturers (prior to Chinese saxophones from the ’70) which used a bell to body brace of this type one of which was Grassi (they started in the ’60).

Of all the Italian makers, Grassi was surely less interested in the production of stencils and made less than Rampone & Cazzani , Alfonso Rampone and Santoni.

Another maker with a similar brace on some models (the ones they made themselves) was Schenkelaars but they imported a lot of stencils from Germany and even Rumania.

The neck of your Dolnet is very much a Dolnet neck, and I don’t think that they as a company would have been that busy that to cover for less expensive models they had to go abroad.

But anything could have happened in those days.
 
#11 ·
milandro, do you have any ideas or theories as to why in all pictures of M70s I have seen 'Universal' is engraved on the bell? It seems odd when the Universal was a cheaper model than the M70.

I've found the second half of the serial number of mine engraved behind a key and on the neck. At least it looks like the original horn is still intact!
 
#12 ·
I have owned two M70 (and alto and a tenor) and seen a few more and none had ever had universal engraved on it. An M70 has a serial number beginning with M70.

The M70 was the best and most advanced model that they ever produced (although I agree that a some point they showed less than perfect examples)
 
#15 ·
Wow, this is getting more and more confusing (but fun) for me...

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions milandro - I'm really trying to piece together how Dolnet named their later models the best I can. If the horn in the link I posted isn't an M70 what is it? It does seem to have the M70 bell twist if you compare the picture to mine, so could it be a cheap (or 'Universal') version of the M70? Which then makes me ask 'what is mine a cheap (or 'Universal') version of?'

Or am I just trying to read logic into a system where none really existed?
 
#18 ·
Thanks again. I think it's time to say my investigations have reached a dead end! To sum up...

It's almost certainly made by Dolnet. The brace suggests a Grassi stencil but this is very unlikely.
As it is engraved 'Universal' it is a tweaked down version of a more expensive model.
The more expensive model is not an M70 although it would seem to come from a similar period.
The serial number is way too low to make sense in the accepted Dolnet list (although no-one is really sure about that anyway!)

Looks like it's keeping its secrets to itself for now...
 
#19 ·
So I took the Dolnet to three repairers! One looked at it for three seconds and said 'Don't waste your money, it's a bad design, if you want a sax buy a Jupiter.' The other two were pretty much in agreement with each other, saying it was mechanically sound, needed a complete repad but was well worth fixing. They both played it and it sounded good to me! They guy that I gave the job to also checked the pitch (OK). He said he would be surprised if it was only thirty years old given the wear of the silvering, which confuses matters even more!

I'm not having it resilvered, I don't mind the look as it is (it's got a bit of character!) The original cost, plus stripping, cleaning, complete overhaul and repad totals £300/€350.

Go on, tell me I've been an idiot...
 
#21 ·
One looked at it for three seconds and said 'Don't waste your money, it's a bad design, if you want a sax buy a Jupiter.'
I got a similar response when asking a repairmen about my Dolnet. He said "Sell it. You can't get parts for it anymore" I ask if I should sell my Mark VI for the same reason (I don't really own a MK VI)
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There is something very cool about Dolnet styling. I had a Bel Air and a Universal for a while but never played them enough to get used to them. I have a couple of Bel-Air derelicts in my garage but that is another story.

I don't think its crazy to pursue fixing any of these horns.
 
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