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Altissimo, Overtone & tongue position

48K views 34 replies 33 participants last post by  btannenb 
#1 ·
Many people said to get an accuracy, clean, full & big altissimo note (Start from G6), tongue position is very important even you don't move your tongue (no legato or attack).

Some of them said our tongue should be on right side when play an altissimo note. is it correct? What about the overtone (Low Bb fingering play a middle Bb), is it also important of our tongue position ?

Thanks. :(
 
#4 ·
Not only air-steam volume & air velocity but the throat are also very important. Must not bite too hard, it's hard to control at start because it's a natural reaction for all beginner. When playing altissimo & overtone exercise, just thinking don't bite, don't bite, don't bite....

:cry:
 
#6 ·
altissimo tongue position

The tongue is like the thumb over the garden hose. If you squeeze your thumb, the water comes out faster and with more force. If you "squeeze" the air with your tongue high into your soft pallete, the air will move faster and cause the reed to pop into altssimo mode. Experiment on front F to practice pushing the air around and bending the note down. You can almost get it to scoop down an octave or so if you gain enough flexibility with the air stream. Some of us call this "voicing".
 
#7 ·
#8 ·
Can someone help me with note bending? I use Sinta's Voicings, and I have made it to the third mode, but the F trick just doesn't work for me. I try, and I try, and I never get the right results. If I raise my tongue, like I do to play altissimo, the note goes higher. If I raise it, and pull back into my throat like my teacher wants, the pitch drops, but only like 10-20 cents. If I drop my tongue, the pitch lowers, but right before I can drop it a half step, the tone ALWAYS breaks, and my teacher says that the pitch was only dropping in the first place because I was loosening my embouchore in order to drop my tongue. So, I don't know what to do. Help?
 
#28 ·
You got one part of voicing right, you're missing the throat aspect.

The way my old teacher explained how to voice was to think about the vowels, a e i o u. Say them out loud, feel how your throat changes and you'll notice that vowels "o" and "u" make the neck/throat region change as aposed to saying "a" or "e" or "i". Once you figure that change in the neck, play the front f and start changing the vowels and not only with the tongue, but with the throat to drop the pitch to a whole step down.

This should prevent you from having the pitch breaking and be able to slur. Also helps in tuning palm key notes!

Hope that helped.
 
#10 ·
I am familiar with Sinta's "voicings " book. Great book.
Regarding the front F trick, I have heard other players suggest front "E", and have found that just fingering a D3 may help to get you started. Just finger regualr D3 and bend that down and back up. Then go for the front E and the F.

Takes a while for some to develop the sense of what your tongue is doing since you (or your teacher can't see it). When you're driving, you might try whistling. Your tongue will change position (low to high) for pitch changes. Not the same as altissimo, but you can start a sensitization process to tell when your tongue moves. Something to do on boring trips. :D
 
#11 ·
Do what Max says with the "ewwww" sound...or try whistling while dropping the pitch way down. That is the position and movement your tongue does to bend those palm keys down. Be sure not to move your jaw...it should be stationary. When you get the feeling how the tongue moves while whistling or saying "ewww" (and dropping the pitch), apply that same movement of the tongue to when you play those high notes.
 
#12 ·
David A. said:
If I drop my tongue, the pitch lowers, but right before I can drop it a half step, the tone ALWAYS breaks
Let me guess, when the F "breaks" it jumps back up and if you continue sustaining it it won't move a bit for anything. I have had many students run into this problem (as well as me personally). It means you are very close just going a bit too fast. There is a very narrow embochure/voicing window to home in on. The instant the F breaks, you have passed it.

Things that have worked with my students:
Focus on the corners of your mouth. Think of pushing the pitch down with that region of your face.

Don't worry about tonal distortion. The first few times you get it to work it will sound just plain nasty.

Watch "Star Wars" (episode IV with all the groovy 70's hair cuts). Pay attention to the sound made when Ben Kenobi shuts off the tractor beam. Duplicate this sound orally starting with an EEEE sound at first and change to an OOOO sound at the end. Notice what this does to your mouth (corners :wink: ). Notice the timbre of the tractor beam sound. If you can duplicate this your throat should be open sufficiently to not fight what you are doing with your mouth.

Often what causes the breaking F is a manipulation of pitch mostly with vertical jaw movement. Your jaw should not budge a bit and the grip on the reed/mpc should not loosen a bit. By loosening you are allowing the pitch to drop. Your intention is to force the pitch to drop. Don't give it any freedom it doesn;t deserve.

Good luck
JD
 
#13 ·
1st post!
I've been trying to develop my altissimo range on my tenor, practicing overtones and all that for a long time, but until today, I haven't hit a single altissimo note.

Jeff D, so I read your post (I just found this forum today).. did your high F thing.. except with a Front E.
well then I tried some altissimo notes.. and actually got a few of them .. high F#, high A, and high B. I think the method works?! :D
still a bit skeptical, but I'll keep trying this out.
I changed to a #3 reed. I'm guessing the 3.5 my teacher told me to use is a little too thick :evil:
 
#14 ·
I have been working on Overtone exercise & Altissimo notes exercise for two months. Definitely, overtone exercise from Sigurd Rasher's top Tone really help me a lot on altissimo. Right now, I can fingering Low B to play the next two octave Higher B pitch. Low C fingering to play a High C pitch is still a problem for me, too difficult. Need keep continue to work hard.

For the altissimo notes, I have no problem just to play a single altissimo note with clear and loud sound. The problem is when I'm playing a continue phrasing, I need to change my low lip slightly in order to play a Altissimo note (EXAMPLE: A high F then immediately a altissimo. G). As a result the phrasing can play not smoothly. I have 2 questions need help:

1) I would like to just change my throat cavity instead of changing my low lip. That's real hard for me. Any tips & suggestion?

2) How long you guys need to spend to get a High C# pitch (3rd octave) smoothly by using Low C# fingering - 3 months, 4 months, or longer ? Is it necessary go ahead the diffcult zone I can't do it now (High C & C#)

PS: In each practice session, I spend 10 minutes on Overtone + 10 mintues on note exercise. 5 days a week.

:cry:
 
#15 ·
Try this for your issue

Take your thumb and and index finger and feel your throat. Keep it towards the top of your throat. Then put your thumb into your mouth and hold it like your would a mouthpiece. Practice expanding your throat without biting down on your thumb. It may look silly but it will help you control your throat better. Also, feel the bottom and middle of your throat and repeat. Move slowly so that you can feel the muscle move better and try to make the movement controlled. You should also feel the top and bottom at the same time once you have practiced. You should be able to control both separately to a slight degree (at least).

I hope this helps.
 
#16 ·
Mr Jeff D,
Thanks very much !
I was struggling since 2 months with some high overtones.
I read your explanantion and I could pop these out in 2 days !

The key for me was, as you explained very well, that I was not focussing on the corners of my mouth. This was the secret for me. :D
 
#18 ·
I have been working on altissimo (for tenor) since about July and so far I've been extremely successful, but I can't seem to get past the second altissimo Eb... Any and all suggestions would be appreciated.
 
#32 ·
Mess around w/ different fingerings. Some fingerings might have strange jumps at that level, or are different on your horn, etc. My highest note so far (on alto) has been the 3rd altissimo Ab (Ab8), but I'm sure I can get to the point where I can play higher than that. You can try overtone fingerings, for example, you could finger a low B-flat and add the octave key, and that will sometimes get you where you need to be. Also, fingering the octave key, the fork key (which is the top key for your left index finger, the one you use for front F and E), and the top left hand trill key will give you a very versatile fingering, which is the one I have used to hit my highest notes. The note you will probably first hit w/ it is D7, but you can lip it up from there.
 
#19 ·
The throat position is a very important part of having a very big fat altissimo sound in combination of course with good air support. I tell my students to think of a cat hissing. If you hiss like a cat you notice the tongue is in a very high position mainly in the back. Start out on front E and try to mimic this, then front F F# G and as you get higher the tongue position just changes ever slow slightly getting higher. Working on overtones does help with the tongue position as well. As you get more notes in the overtone series try and remember what you did to get the higher notes out and mimic that when you play altissimo. My undergrad teacher told me it is a lot of self discovery playing altissimo and a lot of it is. But I hope this helps and if you need any further excises just send me messege I would be glad to help. I love altissimo!
 
#20 ·
the only thing that I could say about the altissimo is that it requires hours of practice and concentration. practice overtones, then work on practicing or "experimenting" with the altissimo range. its easy to say try using different tongue positions and fingerings, but its easier said than done. If you spend about 15-20+ minutes a day on this, it will come in time. think back to when you were a beginner and your sound was awful. it takes about 4-6 years for most people to develope a bearable sound on the saxophone. just try different techniques and see what works for you. if you work at this for maybe a year or two, you will get significantly better
 
#33 ·
I realize that this is an old thread. All the same; 4-6 years, to get to where the sound is "bearable"? I've been playing for just over 6 months and most of my notes - most of the time - come out very cleanly. I recently watched a great video on emboucher. I made some changes and the lowest notes are now rock solid. The high notes are okay; although, I realize that I can improve. I actually seem to be making daily progress. I'm learning how to play "Take 5". The notes are easy enough; but, I have to work on my finger speed. My list of songs has grown to almost 100; so, I have lots of different material to work with. I am committed! BTW: I can also squeak out most of the altissimo notes. I just haven't memorized the fingering, yet. ;)
 
#21 ·
As in almost any matter, the right positioning of the toungue is whatever position you like. Everyone has their own way of positioning it, so I would recommend spending some time figuring out what's most comfortable for you.

I personally keep it in the back of the mouth, so it allows me to play with my throat & mouth opening/positioning instead. I find it very comfortable.

The altissimo range is actually pretty easy for me to work with, so I don't really know any special methods for practicing it.
I hope this helps :)

Sincerely,

SaxMagic
 
#23 ·
In the 1950s a clarinetist by the name of Ray Wheeler took some old floroscope film of him playing clarinet in the different registers. The tongue position was his focus. Contrary to popular belief the tongue should fall away from the roof of the throat and open up the windpipe. This provides more air and allows the reed to do the work. His studies work on sax as well. You have to hear the note before you play the note. Gerald Albright has some great youtube video lessons on his technique to get proficient. Ray was a great teacher and friend, I miss him.
 
#25 ·
this worked very well for me. i was having a huge amount of trouble getting altissimo on my tenor even though i could do it on my alto and clarinet. thinking of hissing brings your lips together and brings your tongue up to give u a faster air stream. i was able to hit the notes within a few minutes. i am still working on sustaining the altissimo notes though
 
#26 ·
Thank you for this thread. It has helped me understand my new horn. I was all over the altissimo and Overtones on my old horn. The challenge with the old yamaha 23 was making any high note sound good and not like an elephant. So I guess I had done a lot of work specific to that horn. So when I got my new Series III I was completely stumped. I could get near to nothing. Nothing usable anyway. The missing ingredient was tounge position I think. That and throat, side of the lips, column of air support, posture, breathing, emboucher, Mpc, Reed, and attitude.
Cheers.
 
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