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23" c soprano saxophone?

15K views 53 replies 15 participants last post by  jhammons01 
#1 ·
Hello. I have lately been in contact with a person selling what he describes as a c soprano saxophone. it has no makers name, no markings and appears to be keyed from low Bb to high Eb. I asked him to measure the length of the horn and he said it was approximately 23". Most c sopranos appear to be between the 22" to 22.5" in length. he says with the original mouthpiece it plays ' a few cents flat ' but also states that the mouthpiece is not pushed right to the octave pip. question is, is it a c soprano or a HP Bb? thanks for any help you might give me.
 
#2 ·
It would be a C. Even a HP Bb would be in excess of 23". Post a photo and I can tell you who made it. I specialize in C sopranos and have owned most brands. I currently have a Conn for sale and it is about 22". As to the pitch, these are a real adventure to play in tune. I do the best I can to set key openings to help even out the tuning.
 
#16 ·
G'day Bruce

I have "just" acquired an old Conn soprano which measures "exactly" 24 inches (610mm) end to end. Beneath the serial number is stamped H. As this old girl is in need of some TLC (one pad and one spring missing - other pads in hibernation) and has arrived without a mouthpiece I am not in a position to play-test this. I have measured my L.Pierret soprano which is 24 & 7/8 inches (632mm) end to end. Can you offer me any elaboration upon this old Conn instrument with regards to its pitch?

regards
Glenn - cold in Melbourne Town
 

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#6 ·
That looks like one of those things from India. Usually they come with red pads and a yellow like case. Whatever it is, it is pretty basic. The large bell looks strange and it has a direct acting G# on the underside. Nickel/chrome plating is not the highest quality. I assume no pearls on the top keys. If it is pitched in C, it would be the first curvie I have ever seen. It may be a high pitch Bb horn. I would avoid it.
 
#7 ·
Bruce

A genuine vintage C soprano I believe. It has sold pretty quickly :-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/My-Beauti...x-/290868724826?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:GB:1123.

I was a little tempted. I believe it is a Paris stencil.

I found some details regarding the Winsor instument business in the uk:-

WINDSOR
As a young man, Arthur Octavius Windsor acquired a thorough knowledge of wood and metal
working and by 1887 had a small factory in Birmingham for the making of coffin 'furniture'.
He played the banjo as a hobby and when the instrument started to become universally
played he made some instruments after his own design. He had his own bench in a corner
of his factory where he fashioned the instruments that carried his name as maker.
His banjos proved popular and in three years he had set up an instrument factory in Newhall
Street and was employing a staff of twenty-five, all making banjos. Very soon his range
of instruments included most of the fretted instruments. He made the first mandolin
banjo with a back built up of separate segments and in 1893 took out a patent to use
the same method for the backs of zither-banjos, although he continued to use one-piece
backs on his cheaper models.
At school, Arthur Windsor had been called 'Castle' and he adopted the silhouette of
Windsor Castle as a trade mark and called his premises in Newhall Street 'Castle Works'.
(In addition to the Newhall Street factory, he had sawmills and a wood-working plant in
Mott Street). In the early days, Windsor tested every instrument before it left the factory.
In March 1892 he teamed up with Arthur J.Taylor, a prominent Birmingham teacher and player
of the banjo and the firm of Windsor& Taylor came into being.
They-did business together for
some time before entering into a deed of partnership. It was at this time the firm started
to make open-back banjos. In January, Windsor & Taylor organised the Birmingham B.M.&G.
Orchestra which gave its first public concert in March of that year.
The firm ceased to exist in December 1940
when the factory was destroyed in an enemy air raid. Up to that time Windsor was
probably the largest maker of fretted instruments ever known in this country. The
output of the Newhall Street factory in Birmingham must have been many thousands of
instruments each year.

Ian
 
#8 ·
WOW, I have been educated. It appeared to be the Indian horn due to the range to low B and not Bb + the nickel plating. Since it had the pearls and single automatic octave key, I would put it after 1915 or so and if the Blitz got the factory in 1940, that would be the era. Since it is a cottage maker, the intonation may be iffy but interesting that it is pitched in C which would make it rare. Since a soprano can have the pitch adjusted with the slightest movement, I would still worry that it was a high pitch Bb. For LS150, could have been worth a try.
 
#9 ·
beautiful sax, and indeed I though, at first glance, that it was an Indian sax shaped object too, but it definitely, from better pictures, isn't.

One question, what would a " Paris stencil" be?

The construction of the palm keys of this saxophone doesn't appear to be particularly French while the cages do look French.

By the way, if your soprano would be French (there were way more companies based in Mantes or other such places that there ever were in Paris, I think) these people here would know a lot about it

http://acimv.blogspot.nl/
 
#10 ·
Hello. I have lately been in contact with a person selling what he describes as a c soprano saxophone. it has no makers name, no markings and appears to be keyed from low Bb to high Eb. I asked him to measure the length of the horn and he said it was approximately 23"...
Hmmm - this is a bit deja-vu'ish :bluewink: I've been contacted by a lady who has recently acquired a 23" Soprano sax, no markings, definitely to low Bb, could this be the same sax ? She comments "each note is equally just about a semitone flat of what it should be", but the mouthpiece cannot be pushed completely onto the cork (at the moment) as it's very oversize - investigations are continuing.

I've put the pics in a Google album, there are quite a few, hopefully viewable to all, I'm sure you'll let me know if they're not accessible. I'm particularly interested in the octave mechanism, all the ones I have are of the 'back-to-back pivoting arms' type, can anyone identify this sax ?

Here is the link to the pictures - click here...

I/We'd appreciate any comments, Bruce, Milandro.... ?
 
#11 ·
the horn in the pictures is a straight soprano while the original horn being discussed was a curved soprano.


I have no idea of what the horn in your pictures is Csax..........something keeps on suggesting to me ( but it is nothing more than an hunch) that it is a French made saxophone and there is a vague French atmosphere hanging about the horn but I have never seen any such octave mechanism and couldn’t identify the horn to save my life.
 
#12 ·
Milandro, thanks for reply, without sounding like a smartarse, the 'original original' sax under discussion - right at the top of this thread/topic - was/is a 23" straight, it was then high-jacked by a poster with a very nice curvy soprano that caught your eye !

Glad the octave mech intrigued you, it's new to me too, although it may have popped up somewhere before - the old grey cells ain't what they used to be... :(

Anybody else, Bruce... ?

Here is the link to the pictures again - click here...
 
#15 ·
Yes indeed Bruce, in places it looks (very) like my Conn PanAm C Soprano action, which is in pieces (cleaning time) before me, but in others decidedly not.

Has soldered toneholes as well. Thanks for that, I know now I've seen that particular octave arrangement before, but might be the middle of next week before the little grey cells light up... Now where was it ? :(

Possibly we'll never know, seems the original owner didn't...
 
#51 ·
Yes indeed Bruce, in places it looks (very) like my Conn PanAm C Soprano action, which is in pieces (cleaning time) before me, but in others decidedly not.
Given the number of times U.S. manufacturers have adopted a famous European name or city to stamp on a domestic horn, I looked up "Windsor" in my oldest Purchaser's Guide to the Music Industries. It turns out that there was U.S. manufacturer claiming that trademark. Elkhart Band Instrument Company (founded in 1923 with Carl Greenleaf, president of C.G. Conn). It looks like the curvy soprano may have been one of its first saxophones! I don't think that I've seen those "duck foot" style key braces on anything after about 1930. Did they revive those on the East Indian saxophone shaped objects?

Mark
 
#17 ·
I am afraid to say, that this is an High pitch horn, unplayable with modern instruments unless you limit playing with string instruments.

It has a very limited value and it won't be worth an overhaul. I hope that you didn't pay more than $100.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/gtsea...ww.saxontheweb.net%2F&ref=&ss=5738j4055574j17

SOTW member Shirish buys HP alto and soprano saxophones, maybe this will help you recuperate some money

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?238570-WTB-HP-High-Pitch-Alto-Saxophone
 
#18 ·
$100 AUD is exactly what I paid and I bought this I expecting it to be a C soprano but know virtually nothing about such instruments. Big question now then is what and where with regards to mouthpiece. Should I contact Soprano Planet with fingers crossed or simply use my existing Bb soprano mouthpiece? With regards to over-haul - I can strip it, clean it, replace springs etc but I'd be inclined to leave everything else to my technician. Noticeable wear in 'most' of the hinge tubes but otherwise in pretty good shape. I've been dabbling with sax repair on a 1926 Buescher T-T High-Pitched alto so maybe I'll give it a go.

Glenn
 
#21 ·
This is not a C soprano, it is an Bb high pitch instrument (read those links please! From your comment I can tell that you haven't done that! Sometimes I wonder why I bother to point people in a direction that is never even considered). They are of extremely little value because they are not to be used in an ensemble.

A=457 Hz and NOT A=440Hz ! High pitch instruments are of no use to most people and cannot be converted to low pitch playing.

Anyway, any soprano mouthpiece (provided it is one od a short design) will work., yours too,no need to spend=waste even more money on this!

Money in an overhaul is absolutely nonsense, unless for some reason you are enamored with the instrument but love is blind.
 
#20 ·
My Conn C soprano (low pitch) measures 22 1/4 inches. Serial no. 136, XXX (1924). It will play pretty well in tune with a metal mouthpiece I believe I bought from Aquilasax. The only marking on the mpc is a "5," but I think it may be a Yamaha. Alas, if it is Yamaha, they don't seem to offer a metal soprano mpc any more. The sax doesn't play in tune so well with other mouthpieces. I am actually using this sax to play for a show right now (mostly because I have an excuse to use it).

Regarding the High Pitch Bb soprano, its best application would be as a lamp.
 
#30 ·
Regarding the High Pitch Bb soprano, its best application would be as a lamp.
Thanks for that information but I think you're being way too cruel. Any sax has its place - if only you alone along with some 'say' classical music. Would you say the same if it were an F mezzo soprano?
BTW - I already have the lamp - a 1926 Buescher T-T 'C' alto ;-)

Glenn
 
#25 ·
Yep, I have a gold plate one like it. Tolerable intonation, better than a Buescher and MUCH better than a Conn. I am selling a Holton (to high F!) that has the best intonation I have found on a C. If you can get that Wurlitzer for a good price, go for it. Redoing is about the same as a Bb.
 
#28 ·
So, it's a Martin ... Cool. I already own it, I got it for a couple of hundred dollars. It came with a mp that appears pretty old and is quite small ... a regular soprano reed hangs over the end. I'm assuming that's a C mp. Is that going to make it easier to play it in tune?

Turtle
 
#36 ·
Thanks for that, Bruce! I bought a 4C this morning and the difference in sound is like night and day. The 4C is not just a better sound, it's a lot better ... more lively and textured and not at all stuffed, like the old one. The octave key is now working, I have no idea why, and the whole horn seems to be playing much better. Now, I'm thinking it doesn't need an overhaul. My cousin was over and I jammed a little with him on piano and didn't find the horn difficult to play in tune with him. Now, the horn sounds really good and it's pretty easy to play. I'm stoked, it's a keeper for sure.

Turtle
 
#31 ·
classical music with which other instrument? Only strings, assuming that you find someone who wants to play with you tuning his instruments to yours.

A mezzosoprano is usable if it were unusable would still be nice to look at but all money spent at it is money that you could have spent on a good instruments.
 
#34 ·
You keep mentioning 'lamp duty', I'm beginning to suspect that you might just have a lamp fetish... :whistle:

Although it obviously can't be used in ensembles with other A=440 wind instruments, in this digital age there are even more options if the horn is a decent enough player... I've played an unbelievably sweet little HP Albert C clarinet with 're-tuned' guitar, violin, bass and electronic keyboards, (not to mention percussion and vocals) and the extra few Hz definitely add a little lively brightness to the sound, especially in vintage jazz or klezmer settings. In fact, at least one guitarist regularly complained bitterly that, when he retuned to A=440 for other gigs, his sound became - quote - "flat and lifeless".

Every instrument has a voice, and - obviously with the caveat that 'if the tone and playability warrant it' - deserves more than ending its days as a 'lamp' or 'screwed to a wall'. Send them to me, I'll cover the shipping... :bluewink:
 
#33 ·
I wouldn’t deface it, but I also would have no use for an instrument that cannot be played in an ensemble other than with a string quartet or a guitar and bass.

Again , the best thing is to sell it to Shirish who will resell it in India where High pitch instruments are commonly used in Carnatic music.

OP is clinging on to the notion that he had a bargain while he paid exactly what a decoration horn is worth and one can certainly use it as such.

Anyway if OP wants am HP Dolnet I can direct him to a seller who has one and he too thinks that the horn that he has has to be worth more than what everyone else is prepared to pay for a horn that cannot be used while playing with others.
 
#35 ·
yes, but this horn needs work and money to be used again. Once it is all said and done it is and stays a horn that can’t be used in most circumstances.

Wouldn’t it be better to spend the money on a hone that is not HP rather than having a horn that you can only use if you are not playing with a string instrument or, dare I say, with yourself?
 
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