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Professor Pushes Hard Reeds

9K views 48 replies 33 participants last post by  Jazzaferri 
#1 ·
I searched to no avail...

A friend of mine did her audition and lesson with a professor near here. From what she told me he took her 2 1/2 reed from her, gave her a 3, and told her not to ever play on a 2 1/2 again. I'm sure it was most friendly than that, but you understand the effect. She was doing classical tenor in the lesson. I'm not sure of her setup, but what's the thought process behind this?

She's been working for two weeks on getting up a reed strength, but it's not working out well, she says. She has an audition a week from today, and can't play her 2 1/2s due to squeaks, and the 3s sound atrocious.

Thoughts? Thanks,
Bubba
 
#3 ·
Harder reeds sound better....there's no way around it. They add body and color to anyone's tone. Though I believe you should use what you like...and I know most all "teachers" are full of ****..fact remains...harder reeds(and a 3isn't hard)..just sound better.
 
#5 ·
My first sax teacher (23 years ago or thereabouts) encouraged me to move to a harder reed rather quickly. I tend to agree there generally seems to be a more clear tone with a harder reed and typically better and more consistent pitch (soft reeds tend to play flat). And as we all know, a #3 reed varies quite a lot from one manufacturer to another. I would encourage her to try a few different brands and stay the course. But then everyone has to find their path through the learning curve of playing the sax and dealing with *#&$& reeds. Hope it all works out well for her.
 
#6 ·
Perhaps I just thought it all pertained more to your piece opening then your physical abilities. My understanding was that they made different strengths because of the different openings, and that you would sounds the same essentially. Suppose it makes sense... Maybe I need to start doing long tones on harder reeds in warm up...

-Bubba-
 
#20 ·
But there's kind of a minimum expectation, especially with classical sax. You'd expect a high level player (or someone hoping to be) to have developed enough air support to be able to play a #3 on most classical mouthpieces.

My teacher in college wanted us to play on #4's, though he'd settle for a 3 1/2. The #4 thing was unreasonable to me (still is), especially when I learned he thought harder reeds were thicker than softer reeds (they aren't). He wanted you to take a 4 and whittle it down until it was playable. It actually turned out that those reeds ended up being thinner than a 3 or 3 1/2 that was more playable from the start.

Personally, I don't like Vandoren. I sound like crap on a 3 or a 3 1/2. They just sound dull for me. If I put on a 2 1/2, it's clearer but very very buzzy (aside from being to soft) and not suitable for classical music.
 
#9 ·
A vandoren 3 or more like 3 1/2 is the reed for a C*, for a classical student. He is right. She will get used to it & advance as a player.

This is THE STANDARD for studying legit sax and concert band playing. Tried & true. She is a student & not a professional. The student's job is to learn & advance & get better. This is the way.
 
#10 ·
Granted, this is a huge generalization but if a player can manage a 3 reed it is likely that their sound will be better. Especially a younger player (not brand new). There is a point of diminishing returns when going to harder reeds. A 2.5 reed has the tendency to have a lot of buzz and a fairly loose buzz at that. IMHO a 3 sounds better for classical and jazz than a 2.5. Again I say that with the awareness that there may be many exceptions. Also, of course, different reeds vary. Lastly, I dont think pushing for a 3 is "Pushing hard reeds". If he wanted the student to play a 4 or 5 that would be an altogether different story.
 
#13 ·
What happened to the auto-censor? Since when can we write "****"? Hmmm ****. ****, **** ****. ****, ****, **** ****, **** ****!
****.

BTW Thomas. Do you teach?
 
#17 ·
A three is not really a hard reed anyway especially on tenor-I had to take classical alto lessons and played 3 vandorens (C*) but was convinced to go to 3 1/2's and they were much better sounding-On tenor I just got some Alexanders 4's HR Link .110 tip opening and they don't blow right out of the box for me- they seem very hard and need to be broken in- but I'm hoping to have some reeds that will last over time...
 
#18 ·
IMO, reeds should be individually matched (tuned - (scraped or sanded)) to the m'piece being used. Don't fight the thing, make it easy on yourself!
As to hard reeds sounding better, someone should have told Stan Getz that he sounded dreadful. He and loads of other top players worked on them, it was widely practiced in the '50s.

Just watch a Tom Ridenour demo :):cool:
 
#19 ·
There are different schools of thought on this. For years, I thought it was desirable to play a harder reed. Then I took a few lessons from a jazz pro who asked why I played a hard reed. He said I should try 2 1/2. I did, and I've been playing them ever since. He said, "Why work so hard?" There have been other threads on this topic. Many others recommend a softer reed, not harder. It depends on the player, the mouthpiece, the type of music you're playing. That said, a 3 is not a hard reed.
 
#24 ·
I searched to no avail...

A friend of mine did her audition and lesson with a professor near here. From what she told me he took her 2 1/2 reed from her, gave her a 3, and told her not to ever play on a 2 1/2 again. I'm sure it was most friendly than that, but you understand the effect. She was doing classical tenor in the lesson. I'm not sure of her setup, but what's the thought process behind this?
You would need to ask him (the professor) that. His thought process could be that for this student, setup and style, that a 2 1/2 was not a good reed, and that she needed a 3. We can't argue with that.

Or, like many people, he might just think that everyone should play on reeds harder than 2 1/2, which is a crock of ****. Players should use the strength of reed appropriate to getting the best sound for them. Sometimes using a harder reed will get a better sound, but can be a shortcut that is not good, because it's often the easy way out, when it would be better to work at getting your air support strong enough to get a good sound on a softer reed, which may well mean you have more versatility, especially in the lower register. It's not easy, but it pays off in the end IMO.

She has an audition a week from today, and can't play her 2 1/2s due to squeaks, and the 3s sound atrocious.
Thoughts?
Reeds don't squeak because they are too soft, they squeak because they are bad reeds. This suggests to me she should forget about 3s, and get some 2 1/2s that are better than the ones she's got or else learn to prepare them, just a few scrapes with a sharp blade and rubbing the table with her thumb or a piece of paper may help.

A professor who insists on harder reeds just because they think harder reeds are better for everyone is not a good professor.
 
#25 ·
You would need to ask him (the professor) that. His thought process could be that for this student, setup and style, that a 2 1/2 was not a good reed, and that she needed a 3. We can't argue with that.

Or, like many people, he might just think that everyone should play on reeds harder than 2 1/2, which is a crock of ****. Players should use the strength of reed appropriate to getting the best sound for them. Sometimes using a harder reed will get a better sound, but can be a shortcut that is not good, because it's often the easy way out, when it would be better to work at getting your air support strong enough to get a good sound on a softer reed, which may well mean you have more versatility, especially in the lower register. It's not easy, but it pays off in the end IMO.

Reeds don't squeak because they are too soft, they squeak because they are bad reeds. This suggests to me she should forget about 3s, and get some 2 1/2s that are better than the ones she's got or else learn to prepare them, just a few scrapes with a shape blade and rubbing the table with het thumb or a piece of paper may help.

A professor who insists on harder reeds just because they think harder reeds are better for everyone is not a good professor.
That was my thoughts. I gave her a 2 1/2 I just purchased today. She let it soak for a bit, and rubbed it down with her thumb a bit. Sounds great. :)

Interesting... Getting a better variety of opinions now. What do you mean by getting better air support with a softer reed? Sort of... blowing through the buzzyness and learn to control? Could you start moving up in strengths, build the support, then come back down?

-Bubba-
 
#26 ·
To play devil's advocate...

there are some reasons, good or not so good, to push hard reeds:

a. for early college students, as a tool to learn ethos: what it is to work to conform to a standard set by a teacher, a studio, a tradition. Classically, you interpret the music, but first, you serve it. Any undergrad curriculum in music is more about how to be correct than how to sound good now, or in a term, or in a year.

b. to build a big, brute force air column. It can be refined later, along with the tone and articulation. Indeed, the various classical schools have adopted a pop or thunk articulation to some degree because that's what works best with hard reeds.

c. because if you have the big air column and a well polished overtone series, hard reeds are just more reliable for a steady tone in the altissimo.

d. because generally, across most types of sax and classical mpc, harder reeds encourage the darkest, least metallic tone quality possible.
 
#27 ·
it is true that some players get harder reeds and work on them to the point where they are softer than just putting on a strengh below so it's good to evaluate rather than just think about a strength in number. In jazz alot of players are just putting on jazz selects w/a medium strengh-soaking them preliminary or not even that and just playing them till they die. I tend to play a reed for too long in order to avoid buying more-but as Jerry Bergonzi points out in one of the videos you should switch to a fresh reed regularly. But because of the prices of reeds -you may not be able to do this and may want to start out with a harder strengh and play the reed as long as possible. Just be aware of when the reed is too soft. Sometimes you may not want to retire a reed that is too soft because it responds well when it probably should be retired...PS not everything in this video will apply for classical- but the last part talks about rotating your reeds.

 
#30 ·
I'd hesitate to call a 3 hard by any stretch of the imagination, especially tenor.

Long tones.

The real question is, if her and the professor bump heads like this, is this a good choice of studio?

There are many other small factors to consider here. What mouthpiece is she playing? Is the facing good? Table flat? Does she flatten the reed table before playing them? I find that polishing the table of my reeds and storing them appropriately will save most of a box and make them sound more "true".
 
#31 ·
I didn't call 3 hard. I did say harder however. She really likes the professor, she was just discombobulated by having the issues with these reeds and I was curious what makes professors want to push you into a harder reed strength when, as it appears now, there are varied opinions on the matter. As I mentioned before, I don't know her setup, and it's not particularly important for the discussion, I believe. She does flatten the reeds. I'm not sure what you mean by polishing reeds, however.

Thanks,
Bubba
 
#32 ·
I usually recommend a #3 reed to my students after they've been playing for a year or so (4C or C* mouthpieces). If they want to go harder it's up to them.

I have one student who studies alto with me but plays tenor in the school band, when he started tenor they gave him a #3 reed right away.
He had problems with the low register so I suggested he try a #2½ (which is what he was playing on alto) but he stuck with the #3 and he adapted. He now plays #3's on alto too and he's been playing for less than a year. So one can adapt after a while.

I had a clarinet student who even though she had been playing for several years before studying with me, was still on #2 Rico reeds. Her tone was pretty weak and thin. I told her to get a #2½. She got some Vandoren's thinking that the strengths were the same so she found them hard to play at first (2½ Vandoren = 3 Rico) but she quickly adapted and her tone improved.

Sometimes students need to be pushed a little. I'm not advocating to always go to harder reeds but a medium strength reed on a medium closed mouthpiece is pretty standard.
 
#43 ·
It's not always a case, but often times, young musicians are capable of playing on harder reeds than they're used to if they're willing to deal with an adjustment period. In my experience, beginners are given reed recommendations when they start beginning band. As they haven't had to develop any breathing technique, lung capacity, or air support yet, they're naturally started on softer reeds. If a #3 Vandoren is is kind of average, middle of the spectrum, then many students start on a 2 or 2 1/2. What often happens is that many kids never give reed strength or brand another thought. So even as they progress, if they're ready to move up or capable of moving up, they never do. And because there's room for growth, they are capable of developing better air support and playing on harder reeds.

My own personal story is that I started out in 6th grade playing #3 Rico Royals on a S80 C*. As a beginner, that reed was too hard. I remember getting upset because my mom could get a sound of of the horn before I could. I don't remember how long it took but I quickly adjusted and was able to play on the 3's. I never changed reed brand or strength for the next 5 years. Never though about it. I switched to tenor in my junior year of high school and bought the same mouthpiece and strength/brand of reeds. I had a really hard time getting a sound out but 2 weeks late I'd adjusted and what once seemed hard was now comfortable again.

This isn't to say that you can just slap on a harder reed and your support will adjust. If you've already developed your air skills then it probably won't help very much. But for young players who have room to grow in that area, they're often capable of putting on a harder reed and adjusting to it after a couple of weeks.

To Bubba,
The idea of her moving up to a #3 isn't bad, but that's not a transition you want to be in the middle of when you have an audition coming up. If you have an audition or recital or concert coming up, you don't want to make significant changes in your setup.

So my advice would be for your friend to stick to the 2 1/2's for now. If they're willing to give the 3's a legit shot, then do it when they can afford to sound less than their best for a short amount of time, like maybe after the last HS concert for the school year.
 
#39 ·
I generally like harder reeds 3.5 fibracell on alto Mouthpice cafe espresso, 3.5 fibracell on tenor Ponzol SS 110 and 4 Fibracell on bari Quantum 12. Imagine my surprise when I tried my new curvy with a Barone 7 with a 2.5 Vandoren and realised I have to go down a strength to a 2 [Hope I don't have to go lower than that] I may feel inadequate !!!
So it does show me that reed strength is not a matter of rule but more a matter of mouthpiece and sound concept.
 
#41 ·
Harder reeds sound better, except to those who like the sound of softer reeds.

The bigger issue for me would be whether my teacher should be dictating in such an inflexible manner something as personal as what strength reed to use. Different people feel comfortable on different equipment, and the variability in preferred tip openings and reed strengths is quite remarkable. Maybe your friend will get used to the #3 reeds and even sound better on them eventually. Will she also get used to a teacher who behaves the way this one did in insisting she never play a 2.5 reed again?

In the near term, she can work around the problem by sanding down the 3 reed to a 2.5 strength.
 
#42 ·
It doesn't make it right, but generations upon generations of musicians have gotten used to inflexible teachers who dictate things.
 
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