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Low A or just to Bb

86K views 172 replies 114 participants last post by  saxfax 
#1 ·
Do you prefer Bari saxes with the Low A key (high bell) or the original Bari (with lower bell)?
 
#120 ·
Listen to these 2 versions of Best Coast played by the Buddy Rich Big Band, one with low A, one without.

(the last tune starts at 9:00)


I don't know what anyone else thinks but that tune NEEDS the low A. All those screaming trumpets need some kind of balance:)

I was fortunate to perform that tune last fall - my Yani 991 did just fine. One other thing - the written chart ends with a held note then a cued bari gliss from middle A to - you guessed it - low A. I could not find a version on Youtube with that ending.

This is just one example - I would guess 2 or 3 tunes per set have low A. Sure, some could come up but it just would not be as much fun. I could not imagine playing big band without a low A.
 
#123 ·
Well next time you're in town you can sit in with my my funk band and have a go at the intro lick to TOP "Soul with a Capital S" - Basically a 16th note triplet Low A-Bb-B, with your extension and see how that works out.

I own both. I prefer the Low Bb horn as it's lighter and the sound has more sort of direct presence to the player with the shorter bell but I've played lots of charts where trying to use a bell extension would turn into a stooge act pretty quickly. So if you are going to try and play with groups that use charts with Low A's having the keywork on the horn is worth the money.
 
#122 ·
Ideally get both a low A and Bb horn.
But failing that you'll need to think about whether you want or need a modern over a vintage horn to some degree.
Not too many vintage Low A's around and also not too many modern low Bb horns.
Personally if I could only have one it would be a low Bb.
Partly due to my neck/shoulder issues.
 
#126 ·
Hmmmmm. The only Bari's I have owned (or played) are a Selmer Radio Improved, Vito Yanagisawa Low A, and a Vito Beaugnier Low A (haven't played this one, just got it, it's in the shop) But you all have given me some things to think about. I loved the Vito Yana, and after having it I thought I would never want anything that wasn't a low a. Now I have to pause. I am primarily an alto/tenor player. I'll have to play some other bari's as I get the chance. I love having that low A and I write a lot of music and I use it often, however if a Bb horn is that different I'll need to investigate....
 
#127 ·
Sorry for the 4 year delay. Currently we are having a "Build Your Own Sax" sale and if anyone wants a low Bb baritone built it will be on sale for 70% off (sale price $2128). You must call me at 702-263-6826 because that low Bb baritone is not one we usually carry.
 
#128 ·
I am currently interested in this topic, and unfortunately the links to the other threads are no longer valid. Any newer input? I played in our local civic band this summer, after not touching a sax in 35 years. I've been asked to join 2 others, including the one directed and managed by our local community college, which demands much greater skills and quality. I used a DC Pro this summer, borrowed from the high school, and am now shopping for my own axe. I own a Yamaha Alto which I purchased new in the late 70s, and it plays really well, especially considering it's been stored for those 35 years! I prefer a bari manufactured in the U.S. if possible, but have been warned to avoid the Chinese saxes due to thinner, lightweight metals used, etc.... I would prefer an older, HIGH quality instrument rather than a new, cheaply/inferior one, but may have to resort to rent-to-own at least until I can purchase what meets my standards for my permanent horn. I have read that the Yamahas have the newer design low Bflat key, which I believe would help me due to my left pinky finger being broken as a teen, heeling incorrectly, and thus, being about 1/4" shorter than that of my right hand lol I have seen photos of another brand's bari with similarly shaped keys. I had also read a post that said the older Conns are user friendly for those of us with older and smaller hands, which both apply to me (53 years old, 5'3" female). Our director went from telling me that my sound/volume were 'good overall' to 'You sound GREAT!' in a matter of 2 weeks between those concerts. I would LOVE to have a beefy, smooth sound.... any current opinions on these points in addition to the Low A vs B flat options??? TIA
 
#131 ·
No

Ideally get both a low A and Bb horn.
Surely, a low A includes a low Bb

I have owned many many baritones both low Bb and low A, and it sis so glaringly obvious to me that the most important thing is obviously the sound and response of the horn, but then the range fr many styes is also crucial.

So for me the very obvious thing is to have a good low A horn, as opposed to a less good low A horn or a less good low Bb horn.

I would never go back to having just a low Bb bari, as low A is so important for my work and there is (these days) no need to compromise on sound.
 
#132 ·
The only reason I can think of to specifically seek out a low Bb horn is for marching. I will never understand the saxophone player's fetish for horns with less features.
 
#134 ·
I have both and find myself preferring to play the Low Bb horn if I don't need the Low A. For me the difference in weight and the low B & Bb notes responding a little easier and feeling a bit more stable are enough to have me reaching for that horn over my Low A much of the time. I play a lot more gigs on my Low A bari and, yes, if I could only have one it would have to be a Low A but it really depends upon the individual and the horn(s). I have a Barone Low Bb bari now but I owned a The Martin for many years and have played several other vintage Bb baris. At this point I would never play a vintage American bari again as the intonation and keywork are not for me. That's not a judgement it's just I've tried the horns and I know what I have works for me and I trust what others claim to really like works for them as well.
 
#133 ·
I have a Couf Superba II (Low Bb) a Conn 11M (Low A). If had got the 11M first, that would be my only bari. It gives me the best of both worlds; that vintage horn roar and low A. Since i bought the Couf first, I prefer it, but love the growl of the 11M.
 
#135 ·
I have been debating getting a Low Bb also, a vintage one would be preferred. A local place has a Low Bb that was a trade in, Selmer I believe (going there today, will verify), mid 70's, silver keys and the bell on this baby is just huge it seems compared to others. Something about that, that I like. Vintage certainly has a sound too, not so much sure of this 70's vintage (what do you guys think of 70's Low Bb sound??), but earlier horns from the 50's and 60's I feel have a tone all of their own from what I have heard, but I have never played.

The other reason I would like an older, used horn is it seems I am always on "pins & needles" with my new Low A I have. Very cautious with it, extremely careful with it, I pamper that horn. I would still care for an older one too, but may not care as much if I dinged it into something, or something bumped it. So this is my other reason for wanting an older Low Bb.

I have hinted to my wife a couple times about this...still trying to read her on it...not sure if its an "oh great" expression, or a "really, are you serious" expression, or "anything to shut you up about it" look, or "it could be worse I guess" look on her face. :)
 
#136 ·
I have been debating getting a Low Bb also, a vintage one would be preferred. A local place has a Low Bb that was a trade in, Selmer I believe (going there today, will verify), mid 70's, silver keys and the bell on this baby is just huge it seems compared to others. Something about that, that I like. Vintage certainly has a sound too, not so much sure of this 70's vintage (what do you guys think of 70's Low Bb sound??), but earlier horns from the 50's and 60's I feel have a tone all of their own from what I have heard, but I have never played.
I think it seems a bit as if you are talking "Vintage" as a brand. I've had many vintage baritones, from 20s through to 70s, and there was no discernible "vintageness" that was common to all. Martins, Selmer, Buescher, Conn - all have their own sound, but there's nothing that defines 50s, 60s, or 70s.

So when you ask "what do you guys think of 70's Low Bb sound??" I would have to say there is no such thing. Many people still wouldn't think of 70s as "very" vintage, many people think of vintage to be a sort of golden era that maybe ends around the time Coltrane died.

It's also a mistake to think that all vintage saxophones are better than modern ones , but I understand that is not a universal opinion.
 
#140 ·
JayePDX, thanks for chiming in! I was thinking about that too (material) and material in many aspects of anything can make a difference. It seems that old Holton I mentioned seemed to maybe be a heavier material than what my new Jupiter has, or any of the new ones for that matter. Some horns have larger bells, or bells that gradually get larger from the bottom to the top of the bell I feel could also produce a different type of tone. Makes me curious about my dads mid 60's Tenor that I play (Vito, Duke Special, French made) against a new tenor, if it would have a different tone to it also compared to new?

My new Bari has a beautiful sound to it, and I doubt I would part with it (after all it is my very first personal Bari), but I still want to get an old Bb. I came across one right after I purchased my new one, and it was a 40's (I believe that is what he posted it as on craigslist) Conn Naked Lady Bari, I thought he stated 10M for some reason. Anyhow I felt the price was right, and the horn was in very nice condition with new pads ready to play. Kinda wishing I had jumped on that one, but oh well. The horn had this rich dark color to it, not really dinged up either, but you could tell it was obviously played for many years!

I would have to find one that the left pinky finger keys are comfortable for sure. My Jupiter is a sweet setup, and the left pinky keys are so comfortable! An old one would have to be the same for comfort. I cannot remember, but I held a mid 70's Conn Bari, and a mid 70's Selmer Bari (silver keys I mentioned in an earlier post) and one of those Bari's it seems the pinky keys were hanging way out, and not comfortable to me in the least. I don't remember the exact year per the serial's but I want to say 76 Conn & 79 Selmer is what it was.

My wife told me last night "so are you going to turn your snowmobile collection into a Sax collection now or what?" I looked at her and said "don't tempt me". :) As I also collect & restored vintage snowmobiles. Saxophones would take up a lot less room too :)
 
#141 ·
JayePDX, thanks for chiming in! I was thinking about that too (material) and material in many aspects of anything can make a difference. It seems that old Holton I mentioned seemed to maybe be a heavier material than what my new Jupiter has, or any of the new ones for that matter. Some horns have larger bells, or bells that gradually get larger from the bottom to the top of the bell I feel could also produce a different type of tone. Makes me curious about my dads mid 60's Tenor that I play (Vito, Duke Special, French made) against a new tenor, if it would have a different tone to it also compared to new?
It's not likely the 'material' per se (MANY conversations about this over in the tech section, sax and body) since a sax's tone isn't coming from how the body resonates like, say, a violin or guitar's would. It has a lot to do with body geometry, neck geometry, things like that.

A modern Yamaha, Jupiter, Yani will sound different from your Vito Duke. Again, you have one horn made on one side of the sonic paradigm shift, and one on the other. And they wont sound different just because they are different makes. A Yamah, Jupe, Yani will have certain qualities about their tone which are in the same family; the Beaugnier/Vito will be more in the Selmer/vintage Euro family of tonality.

Contemporary Jupes are good horns; having had several on the bench, they have been at the level of a Yamaha since around '00. Yet for some reason people often gloss over 'em in favor of other asian brands which are far, far less consistent and reliable. Might be because it took Jupe around 10-15 years on the learning curve to really hone up with something at Yamaha-level.

I would have to find one that the left pinky finger keys are comfortable for sure. My Jupiter is a sweet setup, and the left pinky keys are so comfortable! An old one would have to be the same for comfort. I cannot remember, but I held a mid 70's Conn Bari, and a mid 70's Selmer Bari (silver keys I mentioned in an earlier post) and one of those Bari's it seems the pinky keys were hanging way out, and not comfortable to me in the least. I don't remember the exact year per the serial's but I want to say 76 Conn & 79 Selmer is what it was.
Well...the 'for sure' is what might throw you. Keep in mind (although this is a generalization) people usually will 'sacrifice' the familiarity of modern keywork in order to get the tone and certain other intangibles which come along with a vintage horn. Personally, having refurbed around 150 BigHorns, there's a lot which is 'wanting' in the design of the 12M. It didn't evolve much over the 50 years it was around, kinda funny that. Particularly the keywork and the issues of intonation/getting it in-tune. I personally feel many other makers, including Holton, nailed it much better. Yet they ARE arguably THE most popular vintage Baritone; and they DO have that 12M signature 'sound' and blowing response.

So to have you wish list be "I want that vintage mojo everything with keywork as familiar as a modern asian horn" is...let's say, quite challenging (I might say unrealistic).
It makes the search tougher, and you actually immediately nix a lot of great models off the potential list at the get-go.

So if you hold firm to the 'modern table' idea... you are sorta left with: JK, B&S/Weltklang, maybe a Vito Special or Duke Baritone, Grassi, and certain stencil horns made by R&C in the 70's to early 80's (and of course a Selmer, France).
Note all of these are from across the Pond.
They are also very good. No low cards in that hand.
But old American Low Bb is gonna have a pinky table anywhere near a contemporary horn.

Yet people still love 'em and they are popular....
 
#147 ·
My old bari was a Conn New Wonder. Intonation was terrible in general, but the low Bb was solid and powerful. My SAII has solid low B and A, but the Bb is noticeably weaker and the timbre is different. For me, it's a good tradeoff. I see low As in wind ensemble and jazz band all the time.
 
#148 ·
Low A is an absolute must. I was in the all-state jazz band and half of the pieces required the low A.
One was a Gordon Goodwin tune that we probably couldn't even have played if I didn't have the low A,
because it was so crucial.
 
#152 ·
Like a lot of us, I have a Bb bari for best sound, and a low A for band. Low As generally don't sound as good, because the A was an afterthought - it was grafted on to an existing horn design. The standard low-A keywork is really clumsy, if you think about it. The low A on my Selmer will blast out (if I let it), sort of like an elephant sneezing. I dread seeing pp passages with low As.

However, I also have a horn that goes down smoothly to low G! (And low F!!) You can buy one at https://wessex-tubas.com/collections/ophicleide-and-saxophone/products/bass-saxophone-sax120. Band bari parts seldom go up into the palm keys, so I may practice the transposition and try using this one as my "bari" for the next concert.
 
#158 ·
Most instruments evolved. Sax is one of the few that was designed.

However, since it was invented, the low Bb, low A, High F, Fork F, from 2 octave keys to one automatic...

There have been other improvements--some stuck, some didn't.

Low A bari definitely stuck.

It's nice to have a low concert C on bari, IMO.
 
#160 ·
Charles Mingus once said that if you like to play the high notes on the bass, buy a cello. The low A is there because of the concert C key and in any kind of ensemble the bari is there for the low notes. So, it’s obviously good to have the low A there. I have a Selmer mk6 with the low A and it plays great (=the sound is superb). Would it sound better without the A key? Maybe, but in my opinion you should be at least a recording artist to benefit from that. People who have vintage low Bb horns, enjoy. They will probably anyway sound better than the modern low A horns, which seems to become the default.
 
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