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Thread: Jazz is...

  1. #61
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian paulwl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Anyone read Nick's followup?

    Let me make one thing clear.
 I am not dissing an art form. I am dissing the name, Jazz.
 Just like being called N!gg@r affected how Black people felt about themselves at one time, I believe the term “JAZZ” affects the style of playing. 
I am not a N!gg@r and I am not a Jazz musician.
    He calls what he plays "Black American Music (BAM!)" In the next installment he says, "Black American Music is created by Black musicians, but anybody can play it."

    OK then. But what do we call BAM created by non-Blacks or non-Americans? I kinda like BAAM. Black-American-Affiliated Music.
    "80 years passed before we heard the tenor...in the hands of cads with centre partings & co-respondent's shoes. They squeezed syrupy, farting, oleaginous sounds from their cavernous chambers & microscopic tip openings." –Captain Beeflat, 2013

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    Distinguished SOTW Member ismail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    First he made sense to me, now he sounds as if he's full of ****. I'm out, guess I'm too European for this.
    my music

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian paulwl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Maybe he wants you out...???
    "80 years passed before we heard the tenor...in the hands of cads with centre partings & co-respondent's shoes. They squeezed syrupy, farting, oleaginous sounds from their cavernous chambers & microscopic tip openings." –Captain Beeflat, 2013

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by paulwl View Post
    Anyone read Nick's followup?

    He calls what he plays "Black American Music (BAM!)" In the next installment he says, "Black American Music is created by Black musicians, but anybody can play it."

    OK then. But what do we call BAM created by non-Blacks or non-Americans? I kinda like BAAM. Black-American-Affiliated Music.
    Ok here we go. White American music could be called WHAM (the H for hetrosexual) and an acronym of NP could be OFOSMF - Which stands for one full of ^*() m&*((f^&.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Defining this or that is open to interpretation and opinion.

    I think this guy goes off on some tangents but I generally agree about 1959.

    This is why.

    What are the most important things a modern Jazz player needs to know.

    IMO it's Bebop and Modal Jazz and they were developed before 1959.

    A Jazz player can cover most modern stuff by just knowing the ins and outs of Bebop and Modal Jazz ie Funk, R&B, Latin Jazz, Fusion, Smooth Jazz, Free Jazz etc.

    Just say that I was a Bebop player in 1945 and then I later hear Miles doing his modal thing.
    That's a new approach and I would not immediately be able to play or grasp it and I would have to spend some time getting to grips with it from a technique and feel point of view because it's different to Bebop.

    That doesn't mean that there are not great Jazz players doing things now, it just means that the big developments in Jazz happened before 1959.

    Same thing for Rock and Popular music but most of the big developments in Rock and Popular music happened before 1978.
    Rap and Metal sprung up before 1978 and they are still around and nothing much newer has come up since then.

    All a Rock player really needs to know are things from before 1978 to be able to cover a lot of modern playing.

    A Rock player in 1968 would not be able to cover modal Metal because it was yet to be developed.

    Country Music, same thing happened and it's just gone more Rock.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian paulwl's Avatar
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    Default brief digression, excuse please

    Country went rock to keep up with its audience. It was becoming part of the industrial working class and taking a shine to a more commercial glamour and glitter, but expected the same familiar touchpoints of Whiteness, storytelling, sentiment and twang.

    I always say it's when "country & western" dropped the "western" - the beat and instrumentalism of western swing - and got with the "me" generation.
    "80 years passed before we heard the tenor...in the hands of cads with centre partings & co-respondent's shoes. They squeezed syrupy, farting, oleaginous sounds from their cavernous chambers & microscopic tip openings." –Captain Beeflat, 2013

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    What is Jazz? I know and have always known...

    Jazz is the one true music form risen from below the conscious threshold of modern living in the stratus left behind through the years of incongruous cultures mingling, embracing classic structure but not shackled to it, finding no boundaries in the holistic dreams that men long for without rhythmic or harmonic constraint, having passed through the generations of those experiencing the splendors but also the failings of post-transient melodic development and eschew the conventions of conformity but only consider dark underpinnings which are incorporated in the collective emotions of the world's music-minders and especially those who commit to understanding the sublime heritage and diversity of the form. Simply put… Jazz Is!

    Now where did I put my evening medication?
    Last edited by Jorns Bergenson; 08-26-2016 at 12:57 AM.
    Life is like a box of reeds: ya' never know whatcha gonna get.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    jazz is dead. rock is dead. top 20 radio is dead. fm is dead. country and western is a kabuki rerun. and they pulled the plug on napster.

    the shared experience has been chop-shopped, and synergy is scattered on barren ground.

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    Non Resident SOTW Eccentric & 2012 Forum Contributor Jazzaferri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorns Bergenson View Post
    What is Jazz? I know and have always known...

    Jazz is the one true music form risen from below the conscious threshold of modern living in the stratus left behind through the years of incongruous cultures mingling, embracing classic structure but not shackled to it, finding no boundaries in the holistic dreams that men long for without rhythmic or harmonic constraint, having passed through the generations of those experiencing the splendors but also the failings of post-transient melodic development and escew the conventions of conformity but only consider dark underpinnings which are incorporated in the collective emotions of the world's music-minders and especially those who commit to understanding the sublime heritage and diversity of the form. Simply put… Jazz Is!

    Now where did I put my evening medication?
    Jorns. If you wrote that you missed your calling. You should have been a politician or newspaper writer
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed

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    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Jazz is a large furry thing that's sort of roundish and it comes with multiple chrome attachments.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorns Bergenson View Post
    Now where did I put my evening medication?
    I believe I'll have 2 fingers of that myself.
    The Martin "Official Music Man" tenor, Barone black tenor, The Martin baritone, Richards Martin Indiana alto, Martin Handcraft alto, cheap Chinese soprano, Roland Aerophone AE10, Metalite mouthpieces, Plasticover reeds, Nord Electro 5D, bunch of other instruments

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    Distinguished SOTW Member CashSax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    BIRD LIVES

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by ismail View Post
    First he made sense to me, now he sounds as if he's full of ****. I'm out, guess I'm too European for this.
    He's a racist and an idiot, those people just don't make sense.
    Selmer Reference 54 tenor, Stan getz legends series 6*, Rico jazz select 3H

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    Forum Contributor 2011 Steve Stockham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    "Jazz"... hmph! Funny, I never equated that term as derogatory or in the same class as "n*gger" but apparently Nicholas Payton does! He really doesn't like that word!! Jazz has been around for 80 years as a term for music and in those decades did "Black American" musicians take offense? Perhaps I have been totally clueless. Jazz, for better or worse, is what it is. The terminology is mainstream and has been for generations. This isn't hate speech Nick. It's a reality check.
    Jorns,
    That has to be the most elegant and succinct summation that I have ever heard on this subject. It pretty much says it all! My compliments!

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorns Bergenson View Post
    Simply put… Jazz Is!
    Is Nicholas Payton a jazz denialist?

    "Denialism is choosing to deny reality as a way to avoid an uncomfortable truth: "[it] is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality. It is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of a historical experience or event."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
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    Distinguished SOTW Member ismail's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    I agree though, that there is no music of today that I would call Jazz, which is really cutting-edge and meaningful to me. I am repeating myself, but I think, too, that the term "Jazz" is not really appropriate anymore for a lot of what it's used for.
    my music

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    All of life.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    All of life's experiences.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Jazz as music is well and alive, it just lives in different places. Those who think it's dead either -

    - don't get out enough
    - don't buy enough recordings
    - don't think outside the box
    - think that, by acknowledging jazz that they don't like, that it somehow threatens the jazz that they do like; that somehow they are giving something up

    Jazz is more than an ethnomusicological art form relegated to a period of history, it is a ~process~ that began with ragtime and continues to transform itself in many ways right through the present.

    If many of the fundamental rationalisations given for why jazz should be frozen at any given date were actually applied, say, in 1949, we would only be listening to New Orleans jazz. If it were applied in 1959, we would never be listening to Thad & Mel's big band or Maria Schneider's wonderful compositions.

    Like and don't like what you shall, but to imprison "jazz" within the confines of any specific time frame or rigid stylistic parameters just hurts us all.
    ____________________________________________________
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  22. #80
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Sax Historian paulwl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Unfortunately, it's not an additive process. We don't add to the canon as we do with classical or even folk music. Instead we borrow a pop entertainment philosophy, which is once it's used up it's used up.
    "80 years passed before we heard the tenor...in the hands of cads with centre partings & co-respondent's shoes. They squeezed syrupy, farting, oleaginous sounds from their cavernous chambers & microscopic tip openings." –Captain Beeflat, 2013

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