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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by DanPerezSax View Post
    " 'Jazz' is an oppressive colonialist slave term and I want no parts of it. 
If Jazz wasn’t a slave, why did Ornette try to free it? 
Jazz is not music, it is an idea that hasn’t served any of us well." - Nicholas Payton

    This is nonsense. It's playing with words and has nothing to do with the music. In short, a buncha booshift.
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by randyj View Post
    i could care less what nick says or thinks, jazz by any definition has provided me a great life.

    Nick is just always upset because he wants the attention that wynton gets.

    Nick is also, in many aspects, dumb as a bag of hammers.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    I don't know anything about Payton, his music, or his background, which is, I can tell, a lot different from mine. I expressed myself in favour of his article earlier in this thread. I have a feeling that I might not be agreeing as much with him as I first thought. But from my perspective, his article is still damn funny and to the point. Although he might have meant someting different than what I read into it.
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMusicMan View Post
    " 'Jazz' is an oppressive colonialist slave term and I want no parts of it. 
If Jazz wasn’t a slave, why did Ornette try to free it? 
Jazz is not music, it is an idea that hasn’t served any of us well." - Nicholas Payton

    This is nonsense. It's playing with words and has nothing to do with the music. In short, a buncha booshift.
    Sophistry.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    The postmodern was supplanted by the postcontemporary decades ago.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Click I have absolutely no idea what that means in any musical sense. LOL But it sure sounds important.
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by SaxTMan View Post
    Really? Really Really?
    Yes.

    Free Jazz just went to extremes to be a bit different IMO.

    This sounds like 5 Charlie Parkers playing in different keys at the same time.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrzOzgYL1-o

    Not much new in that except that it's been taken to an extreme.

    If someone likes it well ok but it was never going to be very popular.

    Bebop had enough trouble being popular, let alone Free Jazz.

    Fusion can be extreme as well.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv_bkS5VVaA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwfY0jCiLEQ

    Some things worked well with Fusion but is Fusion mostly previous Jazz or previous Rock.
    It's up to the players/composers to decide on the mix.
    Once again there was nothing really new about the Jazz part of Fusion or the Rock part either.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    I don't care what you call it, whatever it is. It either sounds good or it doesn't. It either connects or it doesn't. Pretty simplistic, I know... but true anyway.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by click View Post
    The postmodern was supplanted by the postcontemporary decades ago.

    That is why i play pre future zajj music. Always on the cutting edge-and you know that has gotta hurt. And though i have been labled as being not much smarter than a box of rocks, i am eternaly cool-in a completely nerdy sort of way.
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by JL View Post
    I don't care what you call it, whatever it is. It either sounds good or it doesn't. It either connects or it doesn't. Pretty simplistic, I know... but true anyway.
    Wisdom in your words

    Simple works for me. Yep music. Either one likes it or not. End of story
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    He sounds confused. At best.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    1. "pre future zajj music"

    Way cool.

    2. I think Payton is confusing the label "jazz" and the music that has been called that in his piece. As a poem it works pretty well. As an argument it is not very clear. A lot of his writing is like that on that site.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Payton's earned the right to say whatever he wants about the music he plays but, frankly, I don't know what he's talking about. I don't get the tragedy, or the mournful angst.

    For instance, on Friday night our little group played in a small local restaurant. Not many people around here consider themselves big 'jazz fans', as far as they're concerned we're just a live band playing party music. We played tunes by Mulligan, Parker, Lee Morgan, Al Cohn, Monk, one after the other, and had people clapping and dancing. No one had to know it was 'jazz'. In fact, I think of it more as 'bop-abilly', jazz heads with a strong beat, matched for the audience, the kind of stuff that makes people respond. I think everyone there would have been very surprised to know that the music was 'dead'.
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by click View Post
    I think Payton is confusing the label "jazz" and the music that has been called that
    I agree with this. The problem is he wanders back and forth from talking about the label or the word "jazz" and whining incomprehensibly about the music. I like his traditional-style playing on Allen Toussaint's CD The Bright Mississippi, but I don't think Mr. Payton is very bright himself (sorry about that).

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    It may be he just doesn't like the label "jazz," but that seems a pretty long tirade just over the dislike of a label. Come to think of it, I can't agree that the music called 'jazz' (whether you like the term or not) ended in 1959. I heard some of the greatest musicians (now mostly gone) playing fabulous music, that was called jazz, in the early '70s. It definitely wasn't over at that point.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    (*Sigh) The guy's got issues.... What I find funny (and kind of depressing) is how many of us actually took his comments seriously and tried to intellectually argue both for and against them! First, define "Jazz." You can't! At least, you won't be able to come to a "technical" definition that is agreed to by the majority of music "authorities" (see what I'm getting at? It's like discussing religion! You're never going to come to a complete concensus!) If Nicholas Payton wants to rant and rave that "Jazz is dead" and would prefer the sound of silence, let him! Heh... why should we care what one, disillusioned artist rambles on about? (Geez....now I'm doing it!!) I know I'm going to regret this but......"Why 1959?" Who died? Who quit? What was so important about 1959?? Ehhh......... whatever! Have fun guys and knock yourselves out! I'm outta here! [rolleyes]

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    He's absolutely right.

    Jazz has been dead a good 50 years.

    It's no longer a living art form, in any meaningful sense.

    Nothing wrong with that.

    I see there are still orchestras and chamber ensembles out there playing classical music that's been dead for hundreds of years.

    And there's still one or two novelty swing bands playing Ellington.

    Heck, I even saw an old maid at a local market with hazelnut in hair hair playing renaissance music on a flute.

    So, if they can do it, you jazzers can keep on doing it, too.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by OaklandBhoy View Post
    He's absolutely right.

    Jazz has been dead a good 50 years.

    It's no longer a living art form, in any meaningful sense.
    I keep hearing these comments in these sorts of discussions. Here's a follow-up question, what forms of music do you feel are not "dead".

    Does a genre need to be popular to be a "living art form"?
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    You know I shouldn't even bother..

    I suppose it could be said that "jazz is dead" or "classical music is dead" when there are no longer any musicians playing or composing in that tradition. Of course, there are. If we want to say "there are no longer any good musicians or composers in that tradition" then one is probably forced to say that people who once were playing jazz (eg Phil Woods, Sonny Rollins yadda yadda) are no longer. That seems scarcely credible. I would be inclined to link any "artform" to the practice of particular persons because if you don't the conversation gets very airy-fairy very quickly.

    Why this is in "Working Sax Pros" is anyone's guess. It seems much more like the kind of "let me offer you a slice of my opinion" topic that works better in the lounge. (IMO )
    "The sound of tireless voices is the price we pay for the right to hear the music of our own opinions."

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Well, there are many different definitions of a "living art form", but here, we're talking about a living art form as something that is growing and evolving, both in terms of those who are creating the art, and those who are enjoying it. Doesn't need to popular, but certainly needs to be gaining in popularity in a real and meaningful way. In that sense, jazz is dead.

    People might enjoy looking at a Monet, or a Picasso, or a Da Vinci.

    Other people might enjoy listening to an Opera, or a concert of Mozart's music.

    But, if anyone starts creating "new" art in the style of Monet, or an Opera in the style of Bizet, or an Orchestral piece in the style of Mozart, do you really think anyone's going to pay attention? No, because it's dead, as an art form.

    Doesn't mean people can't enjoy the originals, or musicians, reciting the originals.

    Same goes for jazz.

    But it's not a living art form. Sure, you still get people trying to create "modern" classical music, in the same way as some people try create modern "jazz", but people actually "enjoying such "creativity" are few and far between.

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