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  1. #21
    Forum Contributor 2009 cleger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    deleted, this one ain't worth the effort.
    Frivolous, Vexatious and Outrageous

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    1959 is a good cut-off date, but for Dexter. He kept it alive for a few more years.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Well that's depressing.
    It's only cool until Kenny G does it.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Don't let Mr. Payton get you down... There are a lot of very exciting and interesting folks playing wonderful jazz today. We should all support it by going to listen to live music as often as we can.
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Wow. That guy's angry. At least by that piece of writing. He sounds like he's trying to break out of a bubble he created for himself but doesn't know he himself created it or possibly that it even exists.


    Harv

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    Non Resident SOTW Eccentric & 2012 Forum Contributor Jazzaferri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    I understand his point of view. I remember seeing Bela Fleck and the Flecktones live shortly after they won their grammy for best ???? whatever it was??? Jazz album of the year.

    Bela came onstage and said something about the grammy and then laughed and said I didn't even know we were a jaaz band.

    I think Mr. Payton is making his view on labels known. No more no less. Why get upset about it. There were those who wrote extensively at the time of bebop that the boppers had killed jazz.

    If a person has a need to define his music in English (or any other written language) well there it is. The only label I could put on the music I usually play would be that it tends to be mostly improvisational music on tunes that others have written. Jazz GJ swing jazz babble babble ..... so what happens if I throw in a few bluesy licks on an old standard or we play autumn leaves in a mambo rhythm for fun. I haven't a clue what to call it although I see lots of evidence that many people feel a need to label it somehow.
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed

  9. #27
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by cleger View Post
    deleted, this one ain't worth the effort.
    Well, i couldn't say it better. And you have narrowed it to a smaller text than that man
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  10. #28
    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    I think he's basically right about 1959.

    I think the modal Jazz movement was basically the last thing to develop that brought new approaches into Jazz.

    Free Jazz and Fusion deviate from previous Jazz too much IMO to be included in the most important Jazz years when things were happening.

    The Free Jazz approach is abandoning previous Jazz in lots of ways that leads to a anything goes sort of thing and Fusion is Rock with some Jazz thrown in.
    A lot things in Smooth Jazz are really retro as well.

    I think that 1978 is probably the same sort of thing for Rock and Pop music.
    Not much happening after 1978 that didn't have it's roots from before 1978.

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    A lot of music that I love is commonly classified as "jazz."
    A lot of music that I don't enjoy is commonly classified as "jazz."
    I believe that all music that I enjoy has some value, and I believe all music that I don't enjoy has value.
    Every attempt to label art offends someone.
    Every criticism of art offends someone.
    Payton's criticism of jazz offended.
    Payton is a good trumpet player who doesn't sound extremely different from the people he is slamming.
    I have nothing against Payton's music, but if he writes a book, I will not buy it.
    There will always be great and exciting new music, but only for the open minded.

  12. #30
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Well no Unisom for me tonight thanks Nick and goodnight.
    My actions are my only true possession they are the ground on which I stand. Thich Nhat Hahn

  13. #31
    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    If anyone can follow Miles/Coltrane with anything newer that takes Jazz into a new popular direction, then I would like to hear it.

    Players can still get together and play good music and have a good time or listen to other players but it's not taking Jazz into a new popular direction.

    Smooth Jazz is not what I'm talking about as I would say that is more R&B with some Jazz colorings especially modal Jazz colorings.

    Latin Jazz had it's roots before 1959 and is mainly a rhythmic change and can be modal based or not modal based.

    Free Jazz is the last sort of thing that could be done to Jazz without going off the rails and still being able to retain some Jazz elements and it was never going to be popular.

    Fusion is more Rock with some Jazz colorings mostly from modal Jazz.

    Hip Hop, Rap with Jazz colorings is just Hip Hop or Rap with some Jazz colorings mostly from modal Jazz.

    The last Jazz form that pops up in more modern music is modal Jazz influenced things.

    Basically there is the II V I fast harmony change style of the old standards and then the more static based harmony of the modal style using modes and just about everything that is more modern is coming off these and especially modal harmony, and the II V I and modal approach were both explored before 1959.

    The modal approach is easier to integrate into modern popular music simply because a lot of modern popular music is also modal based.
    Rock became more modal especially in the 1960s.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member RandyJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    I could care less what Nick says or thinks, jazz by any definition has provided me a great life.

    Nick is just always upset because he wants the attention that Wynton gets.

    Nick is also, in many aspects, dumb as a bag of hammers.

    JR

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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by saxpiece View Post

    I think the modal Jazz movement was basically the last thing to develop that brought new approaches into Jazz.

    Free Jazz and Fusion deviate from previous Jazz too much IMO to be included in the most important Jazz years when things were happening.
    Really? Really Really?
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  16. #34
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    The Martin "Official Music Man" tenor, Barone black tenor, The Martin baritone, Richards Martin Indiana alto, Martin Handcraft alto, cheap Chinese soprano, Roland Aerophone AE10, Metalite mouthpieces, Plasticover reeds, Nord Electro 5D, bunch of other instruments

  17. #35
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    I still don't get what he's trying to say.

    When you read that, you think "Wow this guy must be on the cutting edge" but then you listen to what he plays and it sounds very conventional (granted, I haven't heard is latest...) there's a big disconnect between his playing and his discourse.

    On the other hand someone like Dave Douglas, a ground breaker, will have no problem (to my knowledge) calling what he does "jazz".
    " M'enfin ! " ....Gaston Lagaffe

  18. #36
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Quote Originally Posted by daigle65 View Post
    I still don't get what he's trying to say.
    Quite simply put, that he didn't like jazz after 1959.

  19. #37
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    Well I think Nicholas Payton isn't cool anymore. so there.

  20. #38
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    Default Re: Jazz is...

    What's in a name? I think Payton stays firmly rooted in the jazz tradition by virtue of his hyper-engagement of trying to "lead" with the idea that jazz is dead. He doth protest too much. He is trying to sound like Miles, arguably the coolest bad *** of all musicdom.
    "Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself." •Miles Davis
    “Always be a first rate version of yourself instead of a second rate version of somebody else.” •Judy Garland

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    Default Re: Jazz is...


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