Jazz is...

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Thread: Jazz is...

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\r\n Default Jazz is...\r\n

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\r\n ...not cool anymore.
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"Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself." •Miles Davis
\r\n“Always be a first rate version of yourself instead of a second rate version of somebody else.” •Judy Garland

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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n So I take it that he won\'t be playing any Jazz festivals anymore? \r\n
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    " M\'enfin ! " ....Gaston Lagaffe
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by daigle65\r\n View Post\r\n
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    So I take it that he won\'t be playing any Jazz festivals anymore?
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    \nWhat jazz musician does play "Jazz" festivals anymore? It seems to be pretty broad brush they stroke when they (whoever "they" are) say Jazz festival....
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    \r\nI agree, the word "Jazz" to describe this direction of music is wrong (I guess unless your playing Jazz music from \'59 back).... but there is definitely a forward progression in improvised music whether we notice it or not!\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by phannah\r\n View Post\r\n
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    What jazz musician does play "Jazz" festivals anymore? It seems to be pretty broad brush they stroke when they (whoever "they" are) say Jazz festival....
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    \r\nI agree, the word "Jazz" to describe this direction of music is wrong (I guess unless your playing Jazz music from \'59 back).... but there is definitely a forward progression in improvised music whether we notice it or not!
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    \nSteady progress to be even more esoteric and nerdy then before\r\n
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    Selmer Reference 54 tenor, Stan getz legends series 6*, Rico jazz select 3H
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n "Jazz musicians have accepted the idea that it’s OK to be poor"
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    62\' Tenor Mark VI
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    \r\n Doesn\'t he know? Postmodern New Orleans music is dead.\r\n
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    \r\n He really personifies a lot of things that i do not like in jazz...or maybe he is just not cool \r\n
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    62\' Tenor Mark VI
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by SaxTMan\r\n View Post\r\n
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    He really personifies a lot of things that i do not like in jazz...or maybe he is just not cool
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    \nI met him a couple of years ago when he was touring for Blue Note 70th. He is completely condescending and a most ungraceful man.
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    \r\nHis playing is obviously much better than mine but his attitude stinks!
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    \r\nNot a fan, can you tell?
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    �We are what we repeatedly do.
    \r\nExcellence then, is not an act, but a habit.�
    \r\n~Aristotle
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    \r\n Oh wow. That really made my day. While he is being poetic, he couldn\'t be a lot more to the point on this one, holy crap.
    \r\nOk, he is being extreme, but it\'s well written and it holds a lot of truth.
    \r\nThen again, his experience might differ from mine a lot, so he might be saying something I do not even understand with some sentences.
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    \r\nTwo of my favourite lines:
    \r\n"The very fact that so many people are holding on to this idea of what Jazz is supposed to be is exactly what makes it not cool."
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    \r\n"In order for it to be true, one must live it."
    \r\n- Not very original but true, none the less. So many people with an emphasis on studying it instead of living it. That isn\'t bad in itself, it makes for many well studied, highly proficient people. But to be cool, it has to be culturally relevant. It has to move people. All people. Young people. Creative people. Jazz once did that. Nowadays? Well, anytime I hear musicians play that really move me, I hesitate to call them jazz musicians, since they seem to have broken free of that label. Colin Stetson, Steve Coleman, Evan Parker come to mind.\r\n
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    my music
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    \r\n It\'s interesting to hear what Sonny has to say about Jazz in this interview: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=170581 . He still playes because of Jazz.
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    \nIt\'s interesting to hear the views from both gentleman, I think, because it seems to show what a different thing Jazz still is in the US as compared to Europe. I always loved jazz (I\'m pretty passionate about it actually), but was well aware of it being a form of musical expression that was foreign. The people who owned Jazz lived across the ocean, were mostly black (I still remember Sam Rivers saying in an interview in the mid 70ies that for a black man to do something that a white man couldn\'t do better was either to be a heart surgeon or a jazz musician), and were part of this musical environment of clubs and jam sessions, people handing down the art from generation to generation. Nothing like that was around here in Holland - and thinking of Jazz in terms of Nicholas Paytons was not an issue over here. And now, even with the immediate availability of any piece of music you want at any moment, making Jazz just this little flavour among many, someone like Nicholas Payton feels that he should write this bitter piece - as if it matters. In any other place than America I would have thought it was completely anachronistic to put something down in writing like that.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n I havent read so much artisitic BS in my entire life.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    "Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself." •Miles Davis
    \r\n“Always be a first rate version of yourself instead of a second rate version of somebody else.” •Judy Garland

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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Id rather eat a burger and fries, but in the interests of the OP, and so i dont hijack this thread i will now leave.\r\n
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    \r\n You\'re a true gentlemen, Evan1. No need to leave early.
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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by evan1\r\n View Post\r\n
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    Id rather eat a burger and fries, but in the interests of the OP, and so i dont hijack this thread i will now leave.
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    "Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself." •Miles Davis
    \r\n“Always be a first rate version of yourself instead of a second rate version of somebody else.” •Judy Garland

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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n I cant work out whether thats sarcasm or you really miss me. I agree with one thing in that diatribe of nothingness. "Silence is cool." - NP should take note of this and write less.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Jazz is..
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    \r\nThe complex math of the mind and soul
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    The Martin "Official Music Man" tenor, Barone black tenor, The Martin baritone, Richards Martin Indiana alto, Martin Handcraft alto, cheap Chinese soprano, Roland Aerophone AE10, Metalite mouthpieces, Plasticover reeds, Nord Electro 5D, bunch of other instruments
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Certain musicians have complained about the term Jazz since the 30s. It is a bit curious that some still chafe at the term since all of the pejorative meanings have passed out of usage more than a generation ago. I think what is killing the music is not the label we put on it but the systematic dumbing down of public and the changing roll of popular music in our society. What once was art and high expression is now a commodity, a backing jingle for commerce or a pattern of bits to be fought over in a file sharing case.
    \r\nFinding a way to expand the listener base is key to the future of the music. Is the answer to balance the commercially shaped tastes of the younger listen public with the expressive core of the music? Or does that only further dissolve the essence of what makes jazz special creating just another fusion...mush...
    \r\nAnother way to think about it is to ask ourselves why is it that Kind of Blue or Blue Trane or Brubeck Take Five outsells any thing that Mr Payton or his neowhatever contemporaries have done...\r\n
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    Selmer MarkVI, Philtone Tribute, Selmer 404 lig / Sakshama TM, Otto Link lig, Rico Jazz Select
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786024] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n \r\n When you’re truly creating you don’t have time to think about what to call it.
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    \r\nWho thinks of what they’ll name the baby while they’re ****ing?\r\n \r\n
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    \nThat\'s funny and maybe even true !\r\n
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    \r\nT : Selmer SBA serial 50xxx (1953) - Otto Link Florida no USA 10* - Rico Plasticover 2
    \r\nA : Klingsor serial 016xx (early 60\'s) - Otto Link STM 9* - Rico Royal 2.5
    \r\nSoundClick | SoundClip Index | YouTube | SOTW Blues (Round 8) | Mouthpiece/Sax Pictures
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786065] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n What a load of crap. If Mr. Payton actually believes the drivel he wrote, he is a complete fool.\r\n
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    Talent is a gift from the Lord.
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786226] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Wow. That guy\'s angry. At least by that piece of writing. He sounds like he\'s trying to break out of a bubble he created for himself but doesn\'t know he himself created it or possibly that it even exists.
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786557] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n I could care less what Nick says or thinks, jazz by any definition has provided me a great life.
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    \r\nNick is just always upset because he wants the attention that Wynton gets.
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    \r\nNick is also, in many aspects, dumb as a bag of hammers.
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786685] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by randyj\r\n View Post\r\n
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    i could care less what nick says or thinks, jazz by any definition has provided me a great life.
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    \r\nNick is just always upset because he wants the attention that wynton gets.
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    \r\nNick is also, in many aspects, dumb as a bag of hammers.
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    \r\nJr
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    �We are what we repeatedly do.
    \r\nExcellence then, is not an act, but a habit.�
    \r\n~Aristotle
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1793674] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Esperanza Spaulding. Robert Glasper. Chris Dave. Julian Lage. Brad Mehldau. If Jazz is dead, what are these people doing going out on tour and winning Grammy\'s? They need to be writing angry blogs and complaining more! Because that\'s "Keeping it Real"!!!\r\n
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786078] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n deleted, this one ain\'t worth the effort.\r\n
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786298] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by cleger\r\n View Post\r\n
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    deleted, this one ain\'t worth the effort.
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    \nWell, i couldn\'t say it better. And you have narrowed it to a smaller text than that man \r\n
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    62\' Tenor Mark VI
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786303] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n I think he\'s basically right about 1959.
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    \r\nI think the modal Jazz movement was basically the last thing to develop that brought new approaches into Jazz.
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    \r\nFree Jazz and Fusion deviate from previous Jazz too much IMO to be included in the most important Jazz years when things were happening.
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    \r\nThe Free Jazz approach is abandoning previous Jazz in lots of ways that leads to a anything goes sort of thing and Fusion is Rock with some Jazz thrown in.
    \r\nA lot things in Smooth Jazz are really retro as well.
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    \r\nI think that 1978 is probably the same sort of thing for Rock and Pop music.
    \r\nNot much happening after 1978 that didn\'t have it\'s roots from before 1978.\r\n
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786562] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by saxpiece\r\n View Post\r\n
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    \r\nI think the modal Jazz movement was basically the last thing to develop that brought new approaches into Jazz.
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    \r\nFree Jazz and Fusion deviate from previous Jazz too much IMO to be included in the most important Jazz years when things were happening.
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by SaxTMan\r\n View Post\r\n
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    Really? Really Really?
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    \nYes.
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    \r\nFree Jazz just went to extremes to be a bit different IMO.
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    \r\nThis sounds like 5 Charlie Parkers playing in different keys at the same time.
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    \r\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrzOzgYL1-o
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    \r\nNot much new in that except that it\'s been taken to an extreme.
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    \r\nIf someone likes it well ok but it was never going to be very popular.
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    \r\nBebop had enough trouble being popular, let alone Free Jazz.
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    \r\nFusion can be extreme as well.
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    \r\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv_bkS5VVaA
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    \r\nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwfY0jCiLEQ
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    \r\nSome things worked well with Fusion but is Fusion mostly previous Jazz or previous Rock.
    \r\nIt\'s up to the players/composers to decide on the mix.
    \r\nOnce again there was nothing really new about the Jazz part of Fusion or the Rock part either.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n 1959 is a good cut-off date, but for Dexter. He kept it alive for a few more years.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Well that\'s depressing.\r\n
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    It\'s only cool until Kenny G does it.
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Don\'t let Mr. Payton get you down... There are a lot of very exciting and interesting folks playing wonderful jazz today. We should all support it by going to listen to live music as often as we can.\r\n
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    Selmer MarkVI, Philtone Tribute, Selmer 404 lig / Sakshama TM, Otto Link lig, Rico Jazz Select
    \r\nJust Joe\'s strap (the best)
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n I understand his point of view. I remember seeing Bela Fleck and the Flecktones live shortly after they won their grammy for best ???? whatever it was??? Jazz album of the year.
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    \r\nBela came onstage and said something about the grammy and then laughed and said I didn\'t even know we were a jaaz band.
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    \r\nI think Mr. Payton is making his view on labels known. No more no less. Why get upset about it. There were those who wrote extensively at the time of bebop that the boppers had killed jazz.
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    \r\nIf a person has a need to define his music in English (or any other written language) well there it is. The only label I could put on the music I usually play would be that it tends to be mostly improvisational music on tunes that others have written. Jazz GJ swing jazz babble babble ..... so what happens if I throw in a few bluesy licks on an old standard or we play autumn leaves in a mambo rhythm for fun. I haven\'t a clue what to call it although I see lots of evidence that many people feel a need to label it somehow. \r\n
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    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n A lot of music that I love is commonly classified as "jazz."
    \r\nA lot of music that I don\'t enjoy is commonly classified as "jazz."
    \r\nI believe that all music that I enjoy has some value, and I believe all music that I don\'t enjoy has value.
    \r\nEvery attempt to label art offends someone.
    \r\nEvery criticism of art offends someone.
    \r\nPayton\'s criticism of jazz offended.
    \r\nPayton is a good trumpet player who doesn\'t sound extremely different from the people he is slamming.
    \r\nI have nothing against Payton\'s music, but if he writes a book, I will not buy it.
    \r\nThere will always be great and exciting new music, but only for the open minded.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Well no Unisom for me tonight thanks Nick and goodnight.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n If anyone can follow Miles/Coltrane with anything newer that takes Jazz into a new popular direction, then I would like to hear it.
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    \r\nPlayers can still get together and play good music and have a good time or listen to other players but it\'s not taking Jazz into a new popular direction.
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    \r\nSmooth Jazz is not what I\'m talking about as I would say that is more R&B with some Jazz colorings especially modal Jazz colorings.
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    \r\nLatin Jazz had it\'s roots before 1959 and is mainly a rhythmic change and can be modal based or not modal based.
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    \r\nFree Jazz is the last sort of thing that could be done to Jazz without going off the rails and still being able to retain some Jazz elements and it was never going to be popular.
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    \r\nFusion is more Rock with some Jazz colorings mostly from modal Jazz.
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    \r\nHip Hop, Rap with Jazz colorings is just Hip Hop or Rap with some Jazz colorings mostly from modal Jazz.
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    \r\nThe last Jazz form that pops up in more modern music is modal Jazz influenced things.
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    \r\nBasically there is the II V I fast harmony change style of the old standards and then the more static based harmony of the modal style using modes and just about everything that is more modern is coming off these and especially modal harmony, and the II V I and modal approach were both explored before 1959.
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    \r\nThe modal approach is easier to integrate into modern popular music simply because a lot of modern popular music is also modal based.
    \r\nRock became more modal especially in the 1960s.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n I still don\'t get what he\'s trying to say.
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    \r\nWhen you read that, you think "Wow this guy must be on the cutting edge" but then you listen to what he plays and it sounds very conventional (granted, I haven\'t heard is latest...) there\'s a big disconnect between his playing and his discourse.
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    \r\nOn the other hand someone like Dave Douglas, a ground breaker, will have no problem (to my knowledge) calling what he does "jazz".\r\n
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    \r\n Grumps\r\n \r\n
    \n\r\n \nGrumps est déconnecté\r\n\n\r\n \r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Quote Originally Posted by daigle65\r\n View Post\r\n
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    I still don\'t get what he\'s trying to say.
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    \nQuite simply put, that he didn\'t like jazz after 1959.\r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n Well I think Nicholas Payton isn\'t cool anymore. so there.\r\n
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  • \r\n\n\n'; pd[1786653] = '\n\n\r\n
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    \n\r\n \nFlâneur est déconnecté\r\n\n\r\n \r\n
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    \r\n Default Re: Jazz is...\r\n

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    \r\n What\'s in a name? I think Payton stays firmly rooted in the jazz tradition by virtue of his hyper-engagement of trying to "lead" with the idea that jazz is dead. He doth protest too much. He is trying to sound like Miles, arguably the coolest bad *** of all musicdom.\r\n
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    "Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself." •Miles Davis
    \r\n“Always be a first rate version of yourself instead of a second rate version of somebody else.” •Judy Garland

    \r\nwww.stevenbollman.com
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  • \r\n\n\n'; // next/previous post info pn[1785586] = "1812673,1785591"; pn[0] = ",1785586"; pn[1785591] = "1785586,1785714"; pn[1785714] = "1785591,1785928"; pn[1785928] = "1785714,1785594"; pn[1785594] = "1785928,1785599"; pn[1785599] = "1785594,1785600"; pn[1785600] = "1785599,1786054"; pn[1786054] = "1785600,1785613"; pn[1785613] = "1786054,1785620"; pn[1785620] = "1785613,1785634"; pn[1785634] = "1785620,1785640"; pn[1785640] = "1785634,1785656"; pn[1785656] = "1785640,1785672"; pn[1785672] = "1785656,1785677"; pn[1785677] = "1785672,1785692"; pn[1785692] = "1785677,1785696"; pn[1785696] = "1785692,1786581"; pn[1786581] = "1785696,1785920"; pn[1785920] = "1786581,1786024"; pn[1786024] = "1785920,1786065"; pn[1786065] = "1786024,1786226"; pn[1786226] = "1786065,1786557"; pn[1786557] = "1786226,1786685"; pn[1786685] = "1786557,1793674"; pn[1793674] = "1786685,1786078"; pn[1786078] = "1793674,1786298"; pn[1786298] = "1786078,1786303"; pn[1786303] = "1786298,1786562"; pn[1786562] = "1786303,1786753"; pn[1786753] = "1786562,1786106"; pn[1786106] = "1786753,1786180"; pn[1786180] = "1786106,1786184"; pn[1786184] = "1786180,1786258"; pn[1786258] = "1786184,1786360"; pn[1786360] = "1786258,1786370"; pn[1786370] = "1786360,1786377"; pn[1786377] = "1786370,1786591"; pn[1786591] = "1786377,1786603"; pn[1786603] = "1786591,1786650"; pn[1786650] = "1786603,1786653"; pn[1786653] = "1786650,1786663"; pn[1786663] = "1786653,1788163"; pn[1788163] = "1786663,1788184"; pn[1788184] = "1788163,1786668"; pn[1786668] = "1788184,1786681"; pn[1786681] = "1786668,1786694"; pn[1786694] = "1786681,1786687"; pn[1786687] = "1786694,1786699"; pn[1786699] = "1786687,1786766"; pn[1786766] = "1786699,1786737"; pn[1786737] = "1786766,1786761"; pn[1786761] = "1786737,1786785"; pn[1786785] = "1786761,1786819"; pn[1786819] = "1786785,1786860"; pn[1786860] = "1786819,1787047"; pn[1787047] = "1786860,1786867"; pn[1786867] = "1787047,1787682"; pn[1787682] = "1786867,1788051"; pn[1788051] = "1787682,1788140"; pn[1788140] = "1788051,1788157"; pn[1788157] = "1788140,1788246"; pn[1788246] = "1788157,1788327"; pn[1788327] = "1788246,1788348"; pn[1788348] = "1788327,1788256"; pn[1788256] = "1788348,1790405"; pn[1790405] = "1788256,1790461"; pn[1790461] = "1790405,1788268"; pn[1788268] = "1790461,1788376"; pn[1788376] = "1788268,1788379"; pn[1788379] = "1788376,1788390"; pn[1788390] = "1788379,1788413"; pn[1788413] = "1788390,1788420"; pn[1788420] = "1788413,1788440"; pn[1788440] = "1788420,1790379"; pn[1790379] = "1788440,1790572"; pn[1790572] = "1790379,1791129"; pn[1791129] = "1790572,1791459"; pn[1791459] = "1791129,1792806"; pn[1792806] = "1791459,1790590"; pn[1790590] = "1792806,1790610"; pn[1790610] = "1790590,1790611"; pn[1790611] = "1790610,1790722"; pn[1790722] = "1790611,1791104"; pn[1791104] = "1790722,1790751"; pn[1790751] = "1791104,1793898"; pn[1793898] = "1790751,1790767"; pn[1790767] = "1793898,1790770"; pn[1790770] = "1790767,1790773"; pn[1790773] = "1790770,1790828"; pn[1790828] = "1790773,1790833"; pn[1790833] = "1790828,1791369"; pn[1791369] = "1790833,1791388"; pn[1791388] = "1791369,1791482"; pn[1791482] = "1791388,1791542"; pn[1791542] = "1791482,1791553"; pn[1791553] = "1791542,1791646"; pn[1791646] = "1791553,1792870"; pn[1792870] = "1791646,1793173"; pn[1793173] = "1792870,1793882"; pn[1793882] = "1793173,1794005"; pn[1794005] = "1793882,1794068"; pn[1794068] = "1794005,1794105"; pn[1794105] = "1794068,1812673"; pn[1812673] = "1794105,1785586"; // cached usernames pu[0] = guestphrase; pu[21355] = "Flâneur"; pu[30702] = "daigle65"; pu[60210] = "SaxTMan"; pu[23444] = "lhoffman"; pu[21793] = "ismail"; pu[10526] = "JohnGalt"; pu[43440] = "Rennie"; pu[47281] = "evan1"; pu[11934] = "Sigmund451"; pu[26561] = "phannah"; pu[9707] = "guido"; pu[33170] = "piwikiwi"; pu[53288] = "mrpeebee"; pu[43609] = "BrianMitchellBrody"; pu[70292] = "Starsax A2"; pu[17895] = "cleger"; pu[9342] = "Grumps"; pu[22225] = "bluesaxgirl"; pu[46931] = "Harvey"; pu[55765] = "Jazzaferri"; pu[32183] = "saxpiece"; pu[38580] = "Meatballfoot"; pu[12366] = "vonbraig"; pu[24063] = "RandyJ"; pu[29422] = "MartinMusicMan"; pu[34745] = "mike713"; pu[29357] = "DanPerezSax"; pu[46842] = "click"; pu[9325] = "JL"; pu[39766] = "mascio"; pu[25623] = "Isle of Jazz"; pu[66968] = "Steve Stockham"; pu[47578] = "OaklandBhoy"; pu[28544] = "RootyTootoot"; pu[9161] = "paulwl"; pu[9603] = "Jorns Bergenson"; pu[68910] = "rzzzzz"; pu[9819] = "CashSax"; pu[29919] = "selmer"; pu[9632] = "gary"; pu[71156] = "Homely Saxman"; pu[28157] = "Al Tissimo"; pu[50128] = "artstove"; // -->

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    1. #1
      Flâneur's Avatar
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      "Sometimes you have to play a long time to be able to play like yourself." •Miles Davis
      “Always be a first rate version of yourself instead of a second rate version of somebody else.” •Judy Garland

      www.stevenbollman.com

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