WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones - Page 9

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    Default Administrator note.

    I have removed the distracting soft deleted noise posts and resultant collateral comments that littered this thread. Let me make one thing perfectly clear, the reasons for proceeding with caution concerning this matter were clearly outlined from the very beginning, and this is nothing that should have been approached brashly, or against the wishes of those victims involved.

    To have begun this process earlier would have solicited it's share of derision for "jumping the gun". It will always be damned if you do, damned if you don't from some. The staff shoulders no blame whatsoever in this. I was the go to Admin for those seeking restitution, and handled the delicate matter as prudently as possible.

    Spiteful comments from the peanut gallery by one individual who has an unrelated perceived slight, but absolutely no dog in the fight, will not be tolerated. You have received beau coups warning to cease, and managed to cause the staff additional unwarranted work. Step away from the keyboard, take a deep breath, and collect your decorum.

    99.99% of the membership appear to "get" the point of this thread.
    Now, let's return to helping get this situation at hand resolved in a mature manner, and not get sidetracked by collateral foolishness that only serves to take attention away from the real problem.

    Anyone with comments or questions outside the OP's actual topic can PM myself to discuss. The rest of the staff should be spared.
    Mike S.
    SOTW Administrator/Staff

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    I had Lance do 2 mods for my 1945 The Martin Tenor -- the original prototype for the Martin Comfort Thumb Hook (which he later advertised on his site) and a vintage LH Pinky table. From both of those jobs and the related number of PM's back and forth, I feel I have had enough experience dealing with him to understand how and why all the uncompleted work described on this thread could come about.

    In all fairness to Lance however, I have to state at the outset that he completed and returned the thumbhook extremely quickly and the Pinky table came back to me in just about a month from when I mailed him the keys, which was the time agreed upon.

    On the other hand, and this will give insight into the problems expressed here, the thumbhook was totally different from what I had been led to believe he was making for me, and the pinky table as originally finished and shown in his photo to me had a flat Bb key rather than the upcurved one that appears in all his advertising. After I PMd him a couple of times about my confusion as to why that was, he redid that key to his original design.

    These experiences highlight a fact about Lance's work practices which fits in with his touted role as an innovator and modding-maven -- he clearly improvises, changes and makes things up as he goes along. In line with that, while he was cordial enough with me, he is not the greatest communicator and often gave incomplete or no answers to some of my questions about details and specifics important to me. In relation to the pinky keys I had to PM him more than once sometimes to try and get him to answer points I had asked and often he just never answered some of them in his replies. This was generally frustrating. I imagine that this could be because he thinks of himself as a sort of a Thomas Edison of the sax and is driven to invent and perfect each modification in the act, something which makes him believe the client will also be happy about it, obviating the need to communicate about it either beforehand or along the way. Whatever the case, neither of these behaviors cut it when a client has asked for and is expecting an already existent or standard design and has specific questions regarding all aspects of the job they are paying for.

    To explain the details of my experiences:

    Lance had not made a Martin modded thumb hook until I wrote him 2 years ago asking if he could do one. The original Martin hook is a torture device and it was killing me and after seeing his ad on Ebay for other mods and finding out that he was a SOTW member I decided to see if he could come up with one. The original idea he proposed to me was to take a piece of bar stock just like the bar on the Martin hook and solder on a modern fully adjustable hook like a Selmer or Yamaha one. He even sent me a photo of one of those asking if that would be o.k. I said sure, and looked forward to that, even if it wasn't vintage looking. At least it wasn't soldered on the sax like those Conn mods.

    So I was a bit surprised when he sent me photos of the completed hook that looked just like a version of the original but with the underside of the hook flat instead of convex. I didn't say anything and accepted it because it did look nice and I was anxious for relief on my thumb. However, while I can understand that he rethought the design and decided on something that retained the original vintage look it wasn't what I really had wanted and he never communicated this to me before doing it. So while I did get a better thumb hook than the original, I didn't get the fully adjustable thumbhook he had led me to believe I would be getting. The Selmer style hooks can swivel off their axis but the Martin hook can only be adjusted up and down.

    I didn't communicate my feelings about this to Lance because for the price he did the job for, it was still much better than the original and I was happy enough with it even if it was not what he had originally described. I even posted a positve testimonial to his work on a number of threads, which no doubt helped him to sell more of those hooks because he then went on to advertise and sell them.

    This past spring I decided to order a LH Pinky table from him after asking Victor (Magical Pig) about his experiences with the one Lance made him. Satisfied from that that it was a good thing to do, I ordered the mod and sent Lance the keys. The finished pinky table he sent me photos of at the end was not the same as either the one he made Victor or the one he showed in photos on his website and in his avatar. He had made the Bb key flat as a board instead of bent upward at the bottom edge. I emailed asking why it wasn't bent upward as in his ads, and he gave me some explanation about the difficutlies bending stock of that thickness. I wrote back that I understood that but questioned if the flat key would give the better leverage that his literature talks about his mod giving, which is supposedly why the upcurved design is better than the original flat key Martin made. So he wrote back that he could build up the lower edge of the key with a layer of silver solder which would give the pinky more purchase and would look nice too. Next thing I know, he writes that he has made a key just like the avatar and is shipping it off to me.

    Truthfully, although I was happy that he had redone the key to the original plan, he wouldn't have if I hadn't spoken up. I was confused as to why he had changed his own advertised design in the first place and not communicated it beforehand, although it makes sense now that I understand his M.O. Symptomatic of this too was that when the keys arrived I found that the C# pad had been half burnt by his torch, a fact that he hadn't mentioned at all. When I queried him on it he said he hadn't seen that and although it wasn't a usual occurance it didn't matter since I would have to get those keys repadded anyway because they had been modded by fitting them to his Martin which was different from my own. Be that as it may, it was still a surprise since of course it meant paying my tech for new pads in addition to his charges for adjusting and installing the keys.

    All in all I would say that my own experiences with Lance were a mixed bag. While the quality of his finished products is good -- the pinky table is definitely a big improvement over the original -- knowing what you are actually going to get and getting what you think you have ordered are far from a sure thing because he seems to treat each order as a new project or a prototype. He should do the inventing and perfecting on his own saxes first IMO. While I didn't have awful experiences like the two agrieved members, I can see why they happened. So, I can only hope that Lance will smell the coffee, come down off his high horse (his vitriol in that conical bore pissing contest he got into really showed how inflated his self-opinion is) and clean up his act to meet the standard business model. He needs to realize that while people may want a modification on their horn, most of them don't want to pay for an experiment or science project. They want Mr. Fixit, not Mr. Gadget.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    I had no idea,

    Lance, is there something that someone can do to expediate or help you out of this situation, sometimes %$$%%$ happens, sometimes we take on more than we can do, or sometimes life just gets in the way..Im not trying to make excuses, and the waiting times are excessive to say the least.. but if theres something that I or others can do please speak up or send me a PM if you need help to get back on track..

    Disclaimer: I do not know lance outside of this forum, Im not associated in any way, however his innovative repairs as posted on this forum have always impressed me
    Do your own string Repairs - http://www.mirwa.com.au/How_to_Series.html

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  6. #164
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Lance has a agreed to a target date of June 25, 2011 for completion of my bari. He had also agreed to send photos updates as we originally agreed to.

    So it does seem that this is the good outcome I could reasonably hope for. And I now believe that the central problem was a difference in expectations between Lance and I. In our emails, Lance stated he thought my project was an experimental collaboration between us and I got the impression that he felt I had turned my back on that. But to me, he should have known that I needed the sax back by a certain date since I had asked for and received a completion date in the beginning. And just because I gave him more time when things proved difficult, it did not mean that the sax could remain unfinished indefinately.

    All this could have probably been avoided with better communication. If I was doing the kind of cutting edge work similar to what Lance does, I might come up with a written agreement form where the customer chooses either a definite turn-around time for needed saxophones (such as mine) or an open ended turn-around for spare saxophones intended for experimentation. In my own business I've learned that uncertainties such as this should be avoided as much as possible even when doing work for friends.

    Again, I will continue to post updates as this project continues to its completion. After all this negative posting, I believe it is very important to show that Lance's intentions are truly good if indicated. And I hope others with the same concerns will do the same if their own problems are resolved.
    Good Luck,

    Enviroguy
    _____________________________________________
    Buescher 400 Tenor, Pre-War Big-B Aristocrat Tenor, True Tone Alto, Conn New Wonder Bari, Antigua 590 Soprano

  7. #165
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    i have also agreed with lance to keep my horn until it is completed. I am not implying that everything is perfect, for me it is a backup sax so i am not in a rush but I hope all these problems in this thread are resolved. The prices lance asks are very low and he got swamped with work, of course this is no excuse and I hope lance manages to respond to and satisfy with his work all the people who are indeed in a rush getting their horns back.
    The other thing that becomes clear in this thread is that lance is in an "experimental" state constantly but some people (including myself) think they are buying a finalized design "solution" to their horn issues. Product development process has many stages which ideally are separate, but i guess this is not the case due to the nature of lance's business.
    I would also urge lance to find a solution with conn-hunter and the current owner of the horn.
    Nikolas

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by bbbouklas View Post
    The prices lance asks are very low and he got swamped with work, of course this is no excuse and I hope lance manages to respond to and satisfy with his work all the people who are indeed in a rush getting their horns back.
    I have been looking at his ebay ads lately. I was shocked to see he only charges $350 to add a high E, high F, and front F keys to vintage baritones keyed to high Eb. This is incredibly low.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    I was joking with my original post (#10) relating cost to completion time.
    That relationship only has merit when you negotiate a fee based on completion time prior to the execution of the contract...i.e., "if you want it by this date Y, it will cost you X, if you want it by Y-2 months it will cost you X+$500"
    Trying to tie a relationship to these two variables after the fact is folly.
    1952 The Martin Tenor Silver - RPC 110R
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Still more reports are pouring in to the staff in private. I can't and won't reveal their names if they choose not to report him in this thread, however it speaks volumes as to the ever expanding scale of what has been going on over the last few years.

    All possible excuses aside Lance, this is truly infuriating. You can't say that a platform for you to clear the air and make this right hasn't been provided, yet the crickets chirps are all we have heard thus far from your side. I'm glad you have bothered to return a few emails to one or two of those left in the rain, but what about all the others?

    Since this was largely conducted via the SOTW forum, and with our membership, it IS a matter of public record and very much our business.

    There is some serious bridge burning going on here.
    Mike S.
    SOTW Administrator/Staff

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    making arrangements with 2 customers is part to Lances strategy to postpone all others.

    Walter Webb? where are you out there? Already got back your Magna Alto after almost 2 years?

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Oh Mike...
    I'm so sorry that you are hearing from MORE 'victims'.
    I was truly hoping that everything was on the way to being resolved.
    Instead it seems like we're all going to need rubber knee boots and foul weather gear if and when this deep doodoo REALLY hits the fan.
    My heart goes out to everyone who has had, and IS having issues with Lance.
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by bbbouklas View Post
    i have also agreed with lance to keep my horn until it is completed. I am not implying that everything is perfect, for me it is a backup sax so i am not in a rush but I hope all these problems in this thread are resolved. The prices lance asks are very low and he got swamped with work, of course this is no excuse and I hope lance manages to respond to and satisfy with his work all the people who are indeed in a rush getting their horns back.
    The other thing that becomes clear in this thread is that lance is in an "experimental" state constantly but some people (including myself) think they are buying a finalized design "solution" to their horn issues. Product development process has many stages which ideally are separate, but i guess this is not the case due to the nature of lance's business.
    I would also urge lance to find a solution with conn-hunter and the current owner of the horn.
    Nikolas
    I have not done any business with Lance nor have any plans to as I don't play on Martins or any vintage horns. But I've been watching this thread and what has come to public knowledge.

    If Lance in fact does do a lot of experimental work for people, this doesn't change the fact he has deadlines for other people. If he gets swamped with work because a lot of people ask for experimental stuff, then this needs to be taken into consideration and perhaps raise prices while taking a little less work. The customer must be put first and foremost in every business practice. Now I understand he moved and it was a little difficult for him to get back to everything being normal, but again, you must factor these things in so that things like this don't happen and there are no misunderstandings.
    MM in Performance - Florida State University
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    ohhh how I wish this was just a saxophone issue.... I deal with vendors of this nature all to regularly in the high tech world.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    I would also urge lance to find a solution with conn-hunter and the current owner of the horn.
    Nikolas
    Thanks for support Nikolas,

    we also made business with each other as you were in Greece and I in Germany. Remember?

    wish you good times in Texas.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by FremontSax View Post
    ohhh how I wish this was just a saxophone issue.... I deal with vendors of this nature all to regularly in the high tech world.
    Yes... This can be an issue for all of us. In addition to my day job and my music, I also do industrial hygiene consulting through my own little consulting firm. And today, I owe a client an interpretation of some occupational sampling done last month. And I haven't even started it yet. But the reason I know it's due today is because I voluntarily gave my client a deadline. This forces me to put other things aside and finish it. If I had no deadline, other more pressing things would keep pushing it back and I would never get it done.

    Everyone should remember that this thread should be more of an intervention and wake-up call. And the best defense Lance can give is to quickly take care of his customer's concerns. I invite everyone that has grossly overdue saxes with Lance to contact him offline and then report back their results here.
    Good Luck,

    Enviroguy
    _____________________________________________
    Buescher 400 Tenor, Pre-War Big-B Aristocrat Tenor, True Tone Alto, Conn New Wonder Bari, Antigua 590 Soprano

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Just got a photo update. Lance appears to be performing his magic on my sax. Here's a new tone hole he is casting:

    Good Luck,

    Enviroguy
    _____________________________________________
    Buescher 400 Tenor, Pre-War Big-B Aristocrat Tenor, True Tone Alto, Conn New Wonder Bari, Antigua 590 Soprano

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    self deleted -- problem fixed.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Lance appears to be performing his magic on my sax.
    as he performed "his magic" on my CONN 4 cups and mechanic parts disappeared.[rolleyes]

    Would like to see "his magic" bringing them back.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    So the only person who is so far getting any kind of resolution is, Enviroguy. What bout the others?

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    I think it is pretty clear that Martin Mods is a one-man basement operation. Furthermore, his is not simple tech work of adjusting, regulating, repadding, recorking etc. but full on rebuilds and modifications of vintage saxes, none of which is exactly alike even when of the same make and model. I have heard that even two horns a few digits apart in serial sequence are different, so much of what he does is by necessity custom work fabricating parts and fitting them to a specific sax when he has the sax in hand to measure and fit them to. And he does all that order by order, because there is no way a one man show can even partially pre-produce all these modded parts to have them in bins to simply slap on the saxes as they come in. To use an analogy what he does is not simple auto repair but more like Chopping and Customizing classic cars to order.

    From my experience (described above) I know he doesn't even have the key touches for his basic Martin LH Pinky table on hand, but makes them when you order the item and put some money down. This, even though that would seemingly be a popular seller and he could possibly prep the key touches to a number of tables all at the same time. However, I can understand it because this is an artesanal occupation and it wouldn't be cost effective or time saving to produce a bunch of parts that later might not get used or not even fit.

    So given that he probably only has two hands like the rest of us it's doubtful that he can tackle more than one big custom rebuild job at a time, much less a dozen other small custom jobs along with them. Frankly, I think the guy had his head in the right place but bit off way more than he can chew in terms of meeting schedules for more than one or two customers at a time. Obviously he needs to pay the bills, so took on job upon job and got swamped with a work load and customer expectations that can only be met with a couple of employees assisting him. Add to that the obvious truth that Lance is a tinkerer, so tends to invent a lot as he goes along and also change, perfect (?), redo or remodify already standard modded parts from his catalogue (see my post above regarding the Pinky Table), and you have a receipe for a total bog down disaster.

    So I think Lance's business model is all wrong. He's an artesanal inventor and clearly does it for the love of it, or he'd be charging a hell of a lot more than he is. Just to put this in perspective (in case I'm wrong) I'm curious to know how much he's charging Enviroguy for the total rebuild of that Bari, which is worth what, around $4K? If it's less than 25% of the value of the sax, it's too little in my opinon based on what it costs to get an ordinary full overhaul these days. And how much would Emilio charge for that job if he could even do that kind of work? So to me it's clear that Lance has no head for business from the non-functional way he has marketed himself because he has customers expecting slap-together-job scheduling for work that is way more complex than that, and all at peanut-gallery prices.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not acting as Lance's defender nor connected to him in any way. And it's true my jobs came off on schedule and pretty much o.k., and I am not still waiting for my keys like others here. However, things weren't exactly without some bumps and unexpected changes along the way that had me worried and required prodding him to get things done the way I was told they would be, so I can see why this has happened. Never the less, I think it important to look at the whole picture of the type of work he does in order to see that people's expectations of what is really possible for one guy working alone to complete for more than one person at a time is unrealistic. Of course he is the one who set up the business the way it is, so he'll need to remedy that misconception and screwed up business model he created to fix this mess. But nonetheless I think a bit of understanding and support for him is what is needed and not mudslinging and name calling because I don't think the guy is any kind of crook at all.

    Just my 2 cents after having dealt with the man twice, which is more than I can say for those people who have thown stones without even knowing who he is.

    So I hope Lance, that you can pull it together and rework your operation to not just satisfy your customers, but to give you more time and money for yourself too.

    In peace, because Jazz Is All.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    We are talking about band instrument repair/mods here aren't we?
    1952 The Martin Tenor Silver - RPC 110R
    1928 Buescher TT Soprano (straight) - Selmer Super Session H

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