WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones - Page 3

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  1. #41
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Seems from reading this thread Lance isn't charging enough for his Mods and why would anyone pay most of the agreed on price BEFORE getting the horn back or at least a picture that shows MOST of the work done is just nuts. The financial incentive of completing the job is gone.......

    As a provider of a service though there is a responsibility to "Due Diligence" in completing the work that one has accepted.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member Bebopalot's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMods View Post
    Todd,

    Just for the record: You emailed me on 3/12/11, asking for an update. I emailed you on the 12th, 13th, and the 14th, with picts and exciting news, with no response from you. Care to explain?

    The rest of my reply will follow later today. I have some short-order items that must ship today, a mouthpiece extender and two thumb hooks, or....no electricity.
    In other words, since he didn't reply to emails on the 12th, 13th and 14th, he can't get an update on his sax or an explanation as to why it's taking so long? Really?

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by sonnymobleytrane View Post
    Seems from reading this thread Lance isn't charging enough for his Mods and why would anyone pay most of the agreed on price BEFORE getting the horn back or at least a picture that shows MOST of the work done is just nuts.

    As a provider of a service though there is a responsibilty to "Due Diligence" in completing the work that one has accepted.
    I believed Lance needed that money to continue the work on the sax. We agreed on an informal payment plan and I stuck to it believing work was on-going. This is common practice where I am from since many poorer service providers in many fields cannot afford to complete a job unless they receive payments along the way. I'm probably too naive since I never suspected I would be waiting two years with no indication that Lance even still has my sax.
    Good Luck,

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  6. #44
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Who woulda thunk it. I bought a thumbhook from Lance and he was quite responsive and it arrived in a reasonable time frame.

    What's the go here?

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Enviroguy View Post
    I believed Lance needed that money to continue the work on the sax. We agreed on an informal payment plan and I stuck to it believing work was on-going. This is common practice where I am from since many poorer service providers in many fields cannot afford to complete a job unless they receive payments along the way. I'm probably too naive since I never suspected I would be waiting two years with no indication that Lance even still has my sax.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't think you are an idiot. I believe how you handled this came from a good place.

  8. #46
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    Default Re: Martin Mods/Lance Burton.

    Quote Originally Posted by allenlowe View Post
    this actually sounds like a police matter - if you know the guy's address - call the local precinct.
    Not to be nasty but this is actually an F.B.I matter. The saxophones are embezzled. The requirement of asportation was met when the embezzeld property was taken across state lines which makes this a federal offense. A crime report needs to be filed with any F.B.I field office and all the victims can sign an affi david, get them notorized and mail them in.

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    Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Forum Contributor 2010-2017 maddenma's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Let me step up and either add fuel to the fire or a defense.

    Lance worked on a custom bari part for me. I had no issues what-so-ever. Part was finished in a perfectly appropriate period of time (a week) and we were done.

    I see the controversy, but I don't have anything but good things to say about him personally, and will do business with him again if the occasion arises.
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  10. #48
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by SaxPunter View Post
    Who woulda thunk it. I bought a thumbhook from Lance and he was quite responsive and it arrived in a reasonable time frame.

    What's the go here?

    I'm right there with you, exactly. My interactions w/ him have only been a thumbhook (timely, fine, well made) and some e-mails re Martins and potential modifications. Never had a negative perception at all. This is coming as a surprise, and I look forward to Lance's complete side of the story. Either it'll get explained, or not....


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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Enviroguy View Post
    I was really hoping for a response like, "No, it ain't so and your horn is on the way".

    Instead, you reference some last minute emails sent after I had to suggest the same as I posted above.
    That response did sound like the same kind of diversionary non-response many of you have apparently been getting for way too long already. I just hope for everyone's sake, including his own, that MartinMods will realize how such diversionary responses do more harm than good...especially to his own reputation. After all this time, the time for excuses has expired. It sounds like a little soul-searching is in order. Complete honesty and acceptance of personal responsibility is the only way to resolve things at this point.

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    Default Re: Martin Mods/Lance Burton.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricM View Post
    Not to be nasty but this is actually an F.B.I matter. The saxophones are embezzled. The requirement of asportation was met when the embezzeld property was taken across state lines which makes this a federal offense. A crime report needs to be filed with any F.B.I field office and all the victims can sign an affi david, get them notorized and mail them in.
    I think most law enforcement agencies would tell you this is a civil case, whether it technically is or not. Small claims court(usually 10k or less in most states) is probably the only legal recourse.

  13. #51
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    Default Re: Martin Mods/Lance Burton.

    Quote Originally Posted by clwomack View Post
    I think most law enforcement agencies would tell you this is a civil case, whether it technically is or not. Small claims court(usually 10k or less in most states) is probably the only legal recourse.
    Perhaps if the victims were to approach law enforcement as a group they'd have a better chance of garnering some interest. At least one person here has been unsuccessful in his efforts to get his horn back in whatever current state it might be in, which sounds suspiciously like theft to me.
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    Default Re: Martin Mods/Lance Burton.

    Whether or not it's tortious or criminal, it's indefensible as far as I'm concerned. The patrons/victims have done us all a great service by making this public. I know it doesn't help them in the miserable predicament they currently find themselves mired in, but I for one thank them for letting us know about this situation.

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Contributor 2010 trice's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinMods View Post
    Todd,

    The rest of my reply will follow later today. I have some short-order items that must ship today, a mouthpiece extender and two thumb hooks, or....no electricity.
    How long do thumb hooks take, anyway?...

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    There are two sides to every story I would like to hear/see his response.
    I got from his responses over a year. No pics from them he promised by taking the sax and the money.
    He can argue very well and he is skilled in writing. I wish myself he were not a 2nd Dave Guardala. Ingenious but criminal.

    Lance worked on a custom bari part for me. I had no issues what-so-ever. Part was finished in a perfectly appropriate period of time (a week) and we were done.

    I see the controversy, but I don't have anything but good things to say about him personally, and will do business with him again if the occasion arises.
    Well, I have to say customers like you are one of the reasons why we all are waiting for our expensive horns until today.

    Lance was taking "small" jobs all the time through eBay and SOTW making parts quickly and getting the money quickly putting the horns on a bunch.
    He lost keys and parts of my sax which was intact for decades. I guess the parts are "living" as "transplantation" in another Conn out there, probably a bari.

    maddenma... would you have sent your bari to him, you'd be now joining us here as complainer.

    this nice horn here...has been missed since August 2009




    Now, apologizing for him for have done a single part on time is a joke, a bad one.
    He has been taking small jobs and all the money we paid for the horns are also gone.
    He doesn't provide address and hid himself.
    I do suspect that this guy is either drinking or using the money to buy something "harder' and not having a "normal" life at all, the reason he can't keep finishing horns.
    If he wishes to harm himself , please. But stop dealing with us like idiots.
    I had to make a deal with a good friend of mine in the USA who now is the owner of my Conn.

    As I was in Germany I had a conversation with the US Embassy in Frankfurt about this issue. Yes. I called them to speak about Lance Burton so he is getting famous right now. They gave me some suggestions and advises.
    Now, it is up to the new owner but I wish to make it VERY CLEAR...

    LANCE BURTON caused me the lost of an expensive beloved Instrument which should be by me right now.

    No excuses, and no pardon! He is harming honest good people.
    He has to pay for this.

    If I were there in the USA I'd handle right now.

    Can somebody there call the FBI please so he can join Guardala in prison?

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Enviroguy View Post
    I was really hoping for a response like, "No, it ain't so and your horn is on the way".
    The story seems a bit incomplete. The initial agreement was for the project to take 9 months to complete and involved a complete rebuild, newly formed rolled tone hole rims brazed to the old chimneys, modern key-work, and copper plating (to restore wall thickness - it's a relacquer) and new engraving.

    After completely stripping and some work with the tone holes, we decided that the original chimneys were too frail (some tone holes had become stretched oval). We decided to go with a complete set of Martin-style tone hole rims, Todd provided the brass stock and I would do the extra work at no extra charge, milling, aligning, and brazing. No time period for this extra work was discussed.

    Todd approved the engraving samples that were provided.

    We then decided to forgo the copper plating, and explore the possibilities of "cladding" the body with silver brazed wrapped wire, brazed wire mesh, an Elaine M Goodwin -style brazed brass mosaic, and a fused layer of non-reactive zinc-alu alloy. All of these processes are of course, completely experimental, but Todd was optimistic, and gave his approval. The 9 months came and passed. I continued testing the various processes, at my expense and my time, over the following months, keeping Todd informed. We agreed that the polished, silver-looking zinc-alu alloy had our attention most, so I pursued perfecting that process.

    In the meantime, the body was completely stripped, tone hole chimneys ground off, dents removed, and straightened.

    I decided to build a DIY toaster over kiln which would serve, amongst other things for other projects, to fire clay molds for key parts, and the new tone hole rings if needed. I kept Todd appraised of what I was accomplishing with my time. There were still issues with the "cladded" finish. The TO kiln was finished and worked great.

    Mid January, 2011, Todd inquired about the possibilities of finishing up without the "cladding". I said sure, but informed him that milling the new, massive Martin tone hole rings, though possible, proved on my small mill that it was going to be a very time consuming. I told him I was going to look into converting my larger drill press, to a mill, using a HF milling table.

    After some deliberation, I decided that casting the Martin tone hole rims was the way to go (most likely that's how they were made in the first place.) and built a PID, 30 step/ramp temperature controller for the TO kiln. That was a lot of molds to make. I also perfected the "cladding" procedure, using brass mesh and a fine, fused layer of zinc-alu alloy, that looks just like fine brushed silver.

    Todd inquired about the progress and pictures. I told him the cladding was perfected, and sent the test horn picts, and that the tone hole rims were to be cast, and molds were in the process. His horn was still stripped, waiting for the tone holes, so there were no new horn picts, though all pictures were directly related to his horn's completion. I was very pleased with the successful "experimental" procedures, and everything ready for reconstruction. I got no reply.

    I think Todd is being just a little bit unjust here. He approved the experimental processes all along, which were totally at my expense. Of course if you start "experimenting", then the time considerations are out the window, though, now he would have us believe that this was a routine repad and I was totally negligent in pulling all the parts off the shelf. Frankly, I'm a little offended.

    This is a very shoestring operation still. I spent a long, cold (frozen) winter in a borrowed, unheated garage space, trying to get caught up and to keep this going. Surely, if someone were intentionally cheating people out of their money, they would be smart enough to have spent the winter somewhere warmer.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by trice035 View Post
    How long do thumb hooks take, anyway?...
    Thumb hooks take me an entire day. They are a throw-away, but it's better than nothing.

  19. #57
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    What about all of the other individuals who are awaiting the return of their horns? Even if one or two approved your HIGHLY experimental modifications such as the one described here, not all of them commissioned or elected to have such radical work done. I know that more than a few simply wanted a few keys modified, yet their horns have been MIA for well over a year as well. We aren't talking rocket science, or at least the customers weren't anticipating such complexity when they commissioned the work.

    I know for a fact that there are still more customers here on SOTW who have yet to speak up publicly about their problems with your business.

    I don't think that anyone is going to find this satisfactory Lance. You can do great work when self motivated to complete the projects in a timely manner, but this is past ridiculous. Whatever is going on in your personal life is unfortunate, but these people deserve and demand to get restitution and satisfaction.

    The patience of Job has been demonstrated by them one and all.
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by SAXISMYAXE View Post
    What about all of the other individuals who are awaiting the return of their horns? Even if one or two approved your HIGHLY experimental modifications such as the one described here, not all of them commissioned or elected to have such radical work done. I know that more than a few simply wanted a few keys modified, yet their horns have been MIA for well over a year as well. We aren't talking rocket science, or at least the customers weren't anticipating such complexity when they commissioned the work.

    I know for a fact that there are still more customers here on SOTW who have yet to speak up publicly about their problems with your business.

    I don't think that anyone is going to find this satisfactory Lance. You can do great work when self motivated to complete the projects in a timely manner, but this is past ridiculous. Whatever is going on in your personal life is unfortunate, but these people deserve and demand to get restitution and satisfaction.

    The patience of Job has been demonstrated by them one and all.
    I posted that reply to Enviroguy specifically, obviously. It was not intended to satisfy anyone else.

  21. #59
    Forum Contributor 2008-2016 Jacques5646's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by SAXISMYAXE View Post
    (...) I know for a fact that there are still more customers here on SOTW who have yet to speak up publicly about their problems with your business. (...)
    Folks,

    Don't you think enough room has already be given here to this informal lawsuit ? Those contemplating to entrust Lance with a sophisticated mission will have been extensively warned about the precautions to be taken before nailing the deal down. Those, like me, very satisfied with smaller jobs (two custom made shank extenders: perfect communication, quick completion, excellent results) might think that, here also, life is seldom all-black or all-white. Same controversy arouse here with Dave Jary. SOTW is useful to issue relevant warnings but not as an unregulated court or, worse, an Internet pillory.
    Jacques
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques5646 View Post
    Folks,

    Don't you think enough room has already be given here to this informal lawsuit ? Those contemplating to entrust Lance with a sophisticated mission will have been extensively warned about the precautions to be taken before nailing the deal down. Those, like me, very satisfied with smaller jobs (two custom made shank extenders: perfect communication, quick completion, excellent results) might think that, here also, life is seldom all-black or all-white. Same controversy arouse here with Dave Jary. SOTW is useful to issue relevant warnings but not as an unregulated court or, worse, an Internet pillory.
    Jacques
    No Jacques, it is not as simple as you would so cavalierly have it. This forum board was used to solicit business by Lance, and there is a laundry list of problems that have not been addressed or settled with many of our members. The SOTW Forum and it's membership have a decided and vested interest in rectifying this situation, and will continue to endeavor to do so.

    Every attempt was made privately to find restitution by these individuals over a very long period of time, and it was necessary to go public both as a last resort, and to alert and educate others to the possibilities that one might incur. A lot went into their decisions to publicize this, as the thought that they would likely never see their money or horns again as a result had to be nagging them in the process.

    This discussion is far from being a witch hunt. We have allowed all concerned to give their accounting freely. With all cards on the table now, it is what it is.

    Any legal recourse, should that be warranted or necessary, will be entirely up to those left without their horns or money.

    This will no doubt be an ongoing discussion, and we will keep it open until/unless every avenue has been exhausted to bring closure.
    Mike S.
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