WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones - Page 10

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  1. #181
    Kemtone's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    What this guy needs is for his friends and loyal customers to help him. You can set up a google site for free, he can link to all of his customers, post photo's and give up dates and time lines to complete. The only failed jobs I have had in 25 years are the ones that I didn't communicate completely with the customer. I have screwed up and paid for it more than I care to admit, but if you don't lie, don't cheat and don't avoid your customer you can work it out. So, if you like this guy help him out. If you are a victim, convince his friends and supporters to help him out. It would take 1-2 days to get this all on line and then he can work with out the stress of all the hate.

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  3. #182
    SOTW Lead Administrator SAXISMYAXE's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Lance is a talented designer and tech, and has some visionary ideas for improving the saxophone design, no doubt about it. However, replying to customers via email, and addressing the issues here on the forum costs nothing, and is well withing the scope of his cyber abilities Kemtone. Most concerned here have either received diddly squat in the form of problem resolution or basic communication.

    Not to pile on the guy, but he had no problems writing lengthy diatribes all hours of the day and night, and now that a lot of his customers would like an accounting, the communication lines here are dead silent. Most haven't even received a "the dog ate my homework" sort of excuse.[rolleyes]

    As each day goes by without the most basic of updates and reassurances, the more it is evident that the only ones deserving of pity and support are the victims. For whatever personal reasons, the guy shot himself in the foot and no one else is to blame.

    I was hoping that he would put his big boy pants on, do what needed to be done to fix EVERYONE'S complaints, and salvage his name and those wronged from this ordeal. This is why I didn't ban him outright. Unfortunately it isn't panning out that way.
    Mike S.
    SOTW Administrator/Staff

  4. #183

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by SAXISMYAXE View Post
    Still more reports are pouring in to the staff in private. I can't and won't reveal their names if they choose not to report him in this thread, however it speaks volumes as to the ever expanding scale of what has been going on over the last few years.

    All possible excuses aside Lance, this is truly infuriating. You can't say that a platform for you to clear the air and make this right hasn't been provided, yet the crickets chirps are all we have heard thus far from your side. I'm glad you have bothered to return a few emails to one or two of those left in the rain, but what about all the others?

    Since this was largely conducted via the SOTW forum, and with our membership, it IS a matter of public record and very much our business.

    There is some serious bridge burning going on here.
    No disrespect Mike, but I don't agree with your accusations of my use of the forum, nor your assessment of the situation between my clients and myself.

    I have announced products and services just like many others and where members have expressed concerns, offered assistance. In the case of many of these announcements, where it is within the normal person's ability to do so, I have offered openly, free detailed instructions, plans, and the theory behind everything, so that members could help themselves first. I have spent often, hours each day, answering questions about intonation issues, mouthpieces, etc., and generally helping people, and yes, quite often, they contact me through SOTW.

    In this last client progress update (two days ago), which goes specifically addressed to each and every person I am involved with (and I forgot no one, and that would include EricM, and not ConnHunter), without exception, every single response received has been positive, supportive, and optimistic. I await some responses. I repeat my earlier post. Everything possible is being done to meet all obligations and demands. If something is making you unhappy, communication is via email. Communication is via email.

    If my responses in this thread thus far have seemed like mere "chirps", it is only because they, though 100% applicable to the specific issue they addressed (Enviroguy), were completely disregarded, and in that one single instance, it would appear that the true purpose of this "vehicle", as you put it, has been made perfectly clear - it is not to hear what I have to say about anything in particular, rather, to subject me publicly to what you want to say. I refuse to jump into that tar pit. Sorry, I don't have time for the chatter.

    If the policy is, that I must agree with what you say, what you say anything is, and what you say I am, without objection, then, just as last time, when burning pad materials with a torch and describing the smell was purported as intelligent, objective, and informative reporting, please terminate my membership immediately. I don't have the option to do it myself :-). And if so, then please put the correct reason for the termination in the record. As was incorrect before, you did not terminate my membership because I refused to follow your rules, as in, I broke them repeatedly. I willfully terminated my own membership, because I decided that I simply did not wish to be subject to to your rules. That's quite a different matter :-)

    But, if not, then I do not. Entertain yourselves trying to imagine what running a sole proprietor business doing exclusively, original, hand made modifications is like. You have no idea.

    Jazzisall: :-) Every other manufacturer reserves the right to alter the design of their product at any time, if they consider it an improvement. It is going through constant revision.

    One other issue which is relevant. I just became aware, that the ProTec, Form-Fit case that SOTW member, brasscane, received his Pan Am baritone in after servicing/mod, did not actually belong to him. Though we communicated rather intensively after receiving his horn back, personally and publicly on SOTW, he never mentioned the fact. He had shipped his horn to me without a case. My mistake, but...... I get no response from email and my PM privileges appear to have been revoked. Any info on this, brasscane?

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  6. #184
    Distinguished SOTW Member CONN-hunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    I have spent often, hours each day, answering questions about intonation issues, mouthpieces, etc., and generally helping people
    People paid you in advance to work on the instruments , not to seat for hours for free at the computer Lance. Are you not able to realize this?


    And if so, then please put the correct reason for the termination in the record. As was incorrect before, you did not terminate my membership because I refused to follow your rules, as in, I broke them repeatedly. I willfully terminated my own membership, because I decided that I simply did not wish to be subject to to your rules. That's quite a different matter :-)
    This is real life Lance. Rules are there everywhere to be followed.
    You break rules, promises and agreements and see yourself always as innocent.
    These are the rules for living among adult people. If you like to get the saxophones from other people to have your innovative experiements done on them , you should also keep respecting the owners and agreements, what you don't do.
    That's a shame.
    Or you buy your own horns and make on them whatever you wish and charge the price you consider for just, but don't tell you are finished with a horn when the horn in question even no longer have 4 cups!!!


    Entertain yourselves trying to imagine what running a sole proprietor business doing exclusively, original, hand made modifications is like. You have no idea.


    You're right. We have no idea, neither do you.

  7. #185
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    MartinMods, Your invaluable contribution to the world of saxophone for your innovations and study is one thing that cannot be taken away from you.
    I and many others are grateful to you for that and your contribution, in that respect , to this forum has been substantial.


    But whatever you do or did for that has no bearing on the less than professional way that you conducted yourself with your clients unless you told your customer when they approached you that they were gonna pay less that they could or even should (whatever that means because I think that you had freely determined your price and without any coercion agreed to terms and conditions which included a certain delivery time for certain work I believe) but that they would have had work done from an experimental technician and that you alone would decide what in the end the work would look like and and that they would't have any idea on when they would have got their saxophones back.

    If you and your customers had agreed to that than there would be no problem about any of these things which some have perceived as misgivings.


    From what I've read that was not the case.

    You kept on accepting work without finishing previously agreed work, you kept on selling your horn improvements accessories which were manufactured while you weren't finishing the horns that you had promised to finish .
    You kept on spending considerable amounts of time on this forum (so do I but I have no horn which was paid in advance to be finished for longer than one year) while you were not finishing the horns that you were paid for.


    If you have problems in running you company for the money that you ask and the fact that you are alone.......... you obviously need to ask more money! If you don't want to do that you have to take on less work and only the work that you can finish.

    You will get less customers if you ask for more money but you will then finish what you start and had promised to finish in time.

    You can't blame your entrepreneurial difficulties on your customers and tell them that they don't know what it is like to run a business like yours.

    They don't have to know!


    They came to you (or you to them on this forum often enough) with a request, you asked a certain amount of money for it (if you needed more you should have asked for more or even during the process of fixing the item you could have asked for more motivating your request if parts or materials had become more expensive in the meantime) and promised to finish within reasonable amount of time. That's all they need to know. Anything else is not your customer's problem.


    But even then, even having made all the mistakes in all these years you would have had the chance (and perhaps you still do ) to say " Ladies and Gentlemen , I have been foolish, I've made many mistakes and I have shown poor judgement and I have not been able to live up to my obligations and intentions , so, please, forgive me, I will refund the money to those who need be refunded, pay damages to those whom I've lost (parts) of their horns (this is incredible but even a cock up like this can happen!). I will make a schedule and will agree to a finish day for all of those who will be so kind to, in spite of all of this, stay my customers and I hope never to have to do this again.

    There is only a certain amount of slack that anyone would cut to anyone, even a genius, and you cannot possibly say that those who are fed up of these things among your customers weren't patient or understanding and rushed to conclusions ..........you are very lucky that your art evidently still keeps some trusting you and they want to continue doing business with you, this is nothing short than a miracle and you should live up to your fame by cleaning up your act.

  8. #186
    Forum Contributor 2008-2016 Jacques5646's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Notwithstanding what has been said about the "necessity" to go public about this affair, I do think it's more than time to bring this increasingly disgraceful thread to a stop. It develops into a caricature of a badly managed trial. Both parties have had ample time to express themselves, judges look sometimes a bit like prosecutors and it's time to let each and every SOTWer make his/her own final judgement in the silence of his/her chamber.
    J
    (Jazz) is a lot of wrong notes...especially people who play jazz saxophone. Spinal Tap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waFM6KvSz70

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  9. #187
    Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru milandro's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    I think that the staff is monitoring this thread VERY carefully

  10. #188
    SOTW Lead Administrator SAXISMYAXE's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    I've done all that can be done to give him the opportunity to turn around these indisputably bad business dealings, with questionable results from Mr Burton. ONE PERSON is receiving communication once again as a result of this thread, and we shall see how this pans out. The remainder are being left in the dark to wildly varying degrees, with one ignored blatantly. At this point, any news is good news, so the saga continues.

    His account of past infractions is spurious at best, and really should remain as a private record between the offending party and SOTW per our policy. However since he took it upon himself to dredge it up publicly with a decidedly fictitious and self serving retelling, I will say that a repeat of that tirade (as it actually occurred) will not be permitted now in accordance with our house rules any more than it was then. At any rate, it is irrelevant to the problem we have before us now, and any feather ruffling of his ego past and present takes a back seat to taking care of business here.

    My first instinct was to cut Mr. Burton lose and save the membership and forum from further direct and collateral damage. However I do not wish the board to be accused of not allowing him to defend his side of things, and communicate any attempts at rectification should they take place.

    I WILL NOT be closing this thread as long as those struggling to get their horns back have update information to add to it. As was initially intended, it is hoped that Lance will avail himself to keep a truthful and up to date account of progress here as well.

    Time will tell.
    Mike S.
    SOTW Administrator/Staff

  11. #189
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques5646 View Post
    Notwithstanding what has been said about the "necessity" to go public about this affair, I do think it's more than time to bring this increasingly disgraceful thread to a stop. It develops into a caricature of a badly managed trial. Both parties have had ample time to express themselves, judges look sometimes a bit like prosecutors and it's time to let each and every SOTWer make his/her own final judgement in the silence of his/her chamber.
    J
    This is not a trial. It's the internet. That is the whole point. The SOTW staff have no legal standing in this matter at all as far as I can see. They can only bring moral pressure to bear on the parties involved and try to protect the reputation of the forum. The only way they can possibly do this at this point is through publicity. IMO.

    I'm glad Lance has spoken up (at #183). I may not agree with the logic but I do appreciate the effort to communicate with rather than just walk away from SOTW.
    "The sound of tireless voices is the price we pay for the right to hear the music of our own opinions."

  12. #190
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Yofis View Post
    We are talking about band instrument repair/mods here aren't we?
    I don't think he does what could be construed as standard repair work much at all. Certainly not of "band instruments" if by that one means the usual tech work of adjustments, repads, corking, and misc repairs of a lot of student and garden variety modern saxes like Yamahas and Yanis. The parts for those are generally available from the manufacturer or from Music Medic or someplace like that. If however, you look on his website (even with it's incomplete and non-functional buttons) you see that most of what he does is fabricating parts for modifications of vintage Conns, Martins, etc. Casting tone holes for old

    None of those parts -- conical neck/tenon receivers, pinky tables, fork F keys, chromatic F# keys, Bell key roller linkages, High E/F tone holes and keys, etc.-- came on the original saxes, so never existed before and clearly aren't available from Martin, Conn, King, etc., even if they were still making and stocking parts for saxes 60 and more years old. He can't buy this stuff from Music Medic or anyone else but has to fabricate it all himself for each job. Casting tone holes for old Conns is not "band instrument" repair. Imagine if for every modern Yamaha that came in missing a key or a mechanism your standard tech had to manufacture the replacement from scratch rather than order it or pull it out of his parts cabinet and you see that you just can't compare the services he offers to the run of the mill jobs most other guys do as their major work load.

    That said, I can't in any way defend his inability to schedule and complete these jobs as expected or agreed upon with the customers because any craftsman who has a going business usually learns pretty quickly how much work he is capable of doing at any one time and can accept orders for. Maybe Lance's problem has been that he tried to carry on his business as if it actually were repair work instead of the time-consuming custom handwork it really is. He should have put people on a waiting list and taken their horns sequentially, completing them one by one (or two at most) in order to meet reasonable deadlines and not leave people hanging. If you're going to do it the way he actually has, he needs to have an assistant to help him get out from under.


    Quote Originally Posted by milandro View Post
    You kept on accepting work without finishing previously agreed work, you kept on selling your horn improvements accessories which were manufactured while you weren't finishing the horns that you had promised to finish .

    If you have problems in running you company for the money that you ask and the fact that you are alone.......... you obviously need to ask more money! If you don't want to do that you have to take on less work and only the work that you can finish.

    You will get less customers if you ask for more money but you will then finish what you start and had promised to finish in time.
    I totally agree.

    I had no idea before this thread that he had this problem while he was doing my Martin Pinky Table this summer. I knew he had other jobs going at the same time because I read some of his posts about them on some thread or other, but I had no idea that he was sitting on so much incompleted prior work. It is kind of perplexing that he completed my job within the time frame of little more than a month, while he has been unable to do the same for others. I can't quite figure it out.

    Frankly, I think he needs to reorient his work into building and selling entire modified and improved vintage horns only much like a custom guitar or violin maker does with those instruments. He can rebuild them from project and salvaged bodies to which he adds his own modified parts and improvements. Replated, reengraved, whatever, a totally improved Martin, Conn or Buescher would be more lucrative on the market than what he has going now IMO. This way he could spend an entire month on one horn and then sell it for enough money to make a decent living without all this customer stress and hassle.

    If a blowhard like Steve Goodson can manufactture and sell his own "improved" horns, I think Lance can do the same even better for the Vintage market instead of doing piece work for people like a tailor. If he wants to also manufacture aftermarket add-on or modded parts like the pinky tables, he ought to get an assistant to help fabricate these and then only sell them as send out items for customers whose own techs will adapt and install them on their saxes. If he stopped doing that installation work himself he could devote himself wholly to custom building and innovation of his own horns which he could then market without anyone else's expectations impeding him in their design or completion.

    Anyway, that is what I would do myself if I had his knowledge and skills. I have known a couple of custom stringed instrument makers who have done quite handsomely in that way and it is a time honored tradition of craftsmanship that needs to be carried on without business acumen (or the lack of it) being the determining factor in its survival. If Lance has screwed the pooch, it isn't because he is a poor craftsman but because he is a lousy businessman and hasn't seen the way to really market his vintage saxophone improvements.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

  13. #191
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    His last post is enough for me to know never to do business with the guy. I really don't see how hard it is to say, "I'm wrong. I messed up." or Lord forbid, "Sorry."

    Lance, you don't have to post here. But you SHOULD respond to your clients whose saxophones you have. It's THEIR property. Not your experiments.

    And if money is an issue, why are you experimenting in the first place?
    "By seven o'clock the orchestra has arrived---no thin five piece affair but a pit full of oboes and trombones and saxophones and viols and cornets and piccolos and low and high drums." - F. Scott Fitzgerald ; The Great Gatsby

  14. #192
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Yofis View Post
    We are talking about band instrument repair/mods here aren't we?
    I do think this is a fair question. I use two repairers in the UK both of whom have the equipment and the abilities to do the kind of modifications that Lance Burton advertises. The fabrication of new keys and modification of existing ones is a normal part of a good repairer's job, and can be undertaken in a professional and timely manner.

  15. #193
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Bass Sax Boss saxtek's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by sax-ony View Post
    I do think this is a fair question. I use two repairers in the UK both of whom have the equipment and the abilities to do the kind of modifications that Lance Burton advertises. The fabrication of new keys and modification of existing ones is a normal part of a good repairer's job, and can be undertaken in a professional and timely manner.
    Exactly. There are many technicians, some who are members of this forum, who can perform these tasks to the satisfaction of the customer.
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  16. #194
    Distinguished SOTW Technician. Oric Muso's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    As a tech I don't think many would undertake overhauls to the full extent that Lance is. The logistics become a nightmare. It's OK doing one instrument, but when you get a few in it becomes difficult to deal with. Ordinarily if you have a big job in you might deal with smaller ones to keep things going. Everytime you take time away to deal with that the big job takes longer and longer.
    If you look at who is doing big overhauls - Musicmedic, for instance, they are charging a lot more, have a team working on the instruments and, as far as I'm aware, aren't taking on such difficult tasks as making toneholes. They get stuff made for them whereas Lance is trying custom build everythign himself.

    That baritone isn't going to be finished any time soon. How many hours are spent on it so far - at what cost? It doesn't look a feasible business model.
    It's one thing being good at your work - an entirely different one being good at business. Many craftsmen and repairers arent' too good at the business side - and I include myself in that. We love to do the work. Trying to figure out what to charge customers is tricky.

    Scaling up a business isn't so easy. Especially for a one-man operation. I suspect Lance has got himself into a situation where he just can't cope with the amount of work. It seems for each job the working method is rethought and there is a lack of structure which will just make things take longer and longer.

    I can only suggest Lance concentrates on one instrument at a time and return any he hasn't started yet. Once the backlog is cleared he can take on more work.
    If people are requesting the return of their instruments, you really should do that. In this country not doing so is illegal and called dispossession of goods.

    This is a sad state of affairs and I'm really sory for Lance and his customers.

  17. #195
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    @Sax Ony and Saxtek

    Yes you both are right and I don't deny that many good techs and restorers have the necessary skills and tools to do all this. In fact there are some who can probably do it even better mechanically and cosmetically. However, I don't know that they offer extensive modifications (as opposed to full restorations) as their main line of work and probably only do it as a small percentage of their jobs. Similarly I don't recall seeing anyone else offering fabricated modified assemblies like that. Is there someone else on SOTW or elsewhere making spatula key tables as a major part of their work or casting tone holes? If not, saying that they can produce such parts is not the same as them actually doing it regularly.

    My own tech has those skills too, and makes replacement keys and other parts as needed in a repair or rebuild, but it's only a small percentage of what he does month to month and he's not making mods. The regular jobs keep flooding in and keep him plenty busy as is. I've heard him talk about adapting Selmer spatula sets to other vintage horns, and I know he has the ability to do it, but he never has and didn't offer to do it for my Martin when I asked. That's probably because it would take too much time away from all the day to day standard jobs that he really makes his living on and has deadlines for.

    Don't get me wrong, what Lance has done is really bad. There is no excuse for leaving customers high and dry for that length of time and then not communicating with them. Nor does he have any leg to stand on for not returning their saxes when they got fed up waiting. Did he think he had a mechanics lien on the horns? And losing keys, parts, and cases really is not just sloppy, it's totally unforgivable. So it's good that SOTW has opened this thread to take him to task and try to get him to make good on what he committed to.

    My only point here is that Lance offered a service and products that filled a niche that no one else seems to have done to the extent he has (at least as regards keywork and related mechanisms), and which I valued. My surprise and deception in finding out about about this mess he created has made me want to try to find some explanation for why he could have blown it so badly. I think that is better than just assuming a priori that he's a bad person as some have done. However, it's up to Lance to prove what the truth of the matter really is.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

  18. #196
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Oric Muso View Post
    As a tech I don't think many would undertake overhauls to the full extent that Lance is. The logistics become a nightmare. It's OK doing one instrument, but when you get a few in it becomes difficult to deal with. Ordinarily if you have a big job in you might deal with smaller ones to keep things going. Everytime you take time away to deal with that the big job takes longer and longer.
    If you look at who is doing big overhauls - Musicmedic, for instance, they are charging a lot more, have a team working on the instruments and, as far as I'm aware, aren't taking on such difficult tasks as making toneholes. They get stuff made for them whereas Lance is trying custom build everythign himself.
    I didn't see your post because I was busy writing mine and am glad to see that someone has confirmed and supported the points I have been trying to make. Thank you.
    'How far y'all going?' Ruby asked us with a sigh.
    'We're going all the way 'till the wheels fall off and burn.
    Till the sun peels the paint and the seat covers fade and the water moccasin dies'.

  19. #197
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Kontra View Post
    His last post is enough for me to know never to do business with the guy.
    I have an old Conn bari keyed only to Eb3, and at one time his proposed modifications in extending the range for these horns intrigued me. The way he handled himself in this thread however, is what did it for me.

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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Good news! President Obama has decided to put a no-fly zone into place over Lance's home, and all incoming UPS, USPS, and FEDEX trucks will be fired upon. Outgoing packages containing returned saxes will still be permitted.

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    Forum Contributor 2011 thadnoland's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumps View Post
    I have an old Conn bari keyed only to Eb3, and at one time his proposed modifications in extending the range for these horns intrigued me. The way he handled himself in this thread however, is what did it for me.
    If you decided to get it done anyways, his price of $350 is about $700 too low. It would at least be a bargain. [rolleyes]

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: WARNING: Lance Burton At MartinMods Will Not Finish Or Return Our Saxophones

    Quote Originally Posted by thadnoland View Post
    If you decided to get it done anyways, his price of $350 is about $700 too low. It would at least be a bargain.
    Just because one guy seems to offer a reasonable price to do things and you're unaware of others that do same... doesn't mean they're not out there. I've seen folks here talk about all sorts of repairs and modifications that I could get done for less by other competent band instrument repair technicians. Furthermore, if I'm going to contract for repairs and/or modifications, I would not do so with someone who reserves the right to unilaterally alter the contract as he sees fit.

    Also, a bargain is only a bargain when the job has been fulfilled.

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