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Don't know what to do . Teacher says ditch the new horn?

11K views 53 replies 29 participants last post by  Gordon (NZ) 
#1 ·
I have been playing for the last 2 years a Yamaha 34 that is in tune and has reliable keywork. But I bought a Thibouville Freres last week that has a fat sweet tone. Problem is its not nearly as in tune as the Yamaha. My teacher seems to think its not worth the bother and I sound okay on the Yamaha. What happens for me is I play a slow scale on this Thibourville and say to myself, see, my tone is as good as what I hear on classical records. So, I don't know whether I should deal with the intonation or just go back to the Yamaha and try to fatten that up? I felt like I took Dr Gs advice but my teacher just shakes her head. (she sound beautiful on a Buffet Greenline but I can't spend that kind of money. ) K
 
#2 ·
I say keep trying to use the Thibouville and work on the intonation. I feel that tone is very important, so if you can work on the intonation and get a better tone, then do that.
 
#3 ·
Keith - you might relate the degree of bad intonation on the Thibouville to an imaginary sax that you might buy, and then ask yourself, "If this was a sax, would I continue to fight the intonation, or would I call it a day and spend the next X months looking for another horn that gives me the sound I am looking for but which is more manageable to play, otherwise".
 
#5 ·
To be fair, I don't think the teacher is saying you have to get rid of the Thibouville Freres. She's saying she wants to teach you on an instrument with accurate intonation. I bet your teacher would sound beautiful on the Yamaha as well as the Greenline. Actually ask her to play the Yamaha and the TF. If she struggles to get the latter in tune then that proves her point. If not, she may start to come round to your point of view. (IMHO)
 
#6 ·
Keith. I think you're already on the right track here. Play with it and see if familiarity with the Freres sorts things out. For mine, trying to work through Klose, Langenus, Rose, Baermann, Opperman etc on Clarinet is tough enough without fighting the horn.
 
#9 ·
Clarinets are not like saxophones in the sense of adjusting pitch as you play. If the pitch is REAL wacky - I would strongly think about using it on a gig because you could have the nicest tone but if you dont play in tune - you are not gonna get called back. If you have an ok sound and you play in tune - you will get called back. Thats just how I have seen things work in my neck of the woods.

Charlie
 
#11 ·
Fixing clarinet intonation is a tricky thing.

A few years back I played the Tenor and Soprano Saxophone parts on Bolero & sat next to my wife's former clarinet professor, who was on the Eb Clarinet part. All he had was a university horn (50's era Selmer) with BAD intonation.

The first night of rehearsal, he fought it and didn't sound so great. I was kinda concerned but the next rehearsal he nailed every single pitch by compensating with alternate fingerings. He is a master clarinetist, though, and was trying extremely hard.

He was able to put on quite a musical performance, but had the Eb Clarinet been properly intonated, he would not have had to work as hard. If this had been the case, his musicality most assuredly would have increased as well.

I say go back to the Yamaha and try some mpcs and/or barrels to help "fatten" your tone.

Good Luck, Keith!
 
#12 ·
Keith,

I think you should just step up to the plate and get a modern(-ish), pro horn. You can do this for $1000-1500. You know... Buffet, Selmer Paris, Leblanc, Yamaha. Money well spent. Several decent deals have gone by here. You will have no intonation problems and you can focus on playing.

(I would sell you my Selmer for a grand. But my intention is not to unload horns on you.)

IMO...
 
#13 ·
If you are having intonation problems, I'd say go with the horn that is in tune. The tone can be changed a lot with a mouthpiece and/or barrel and a lot of practice (which could be the difference you hear in tone with your teacher). Having to fight intonation issues isn't something that I'd be up for, and that the colleagues you play with wouldn't want to deal with either!

I also agree with having your teacher play the horn to see how difficult it is for them on intonation as well.

Good luck!
 
#14 ·
I'm also wondering if the teacher was playing with you in that lesson and that's how he/she knew it was off. No matter how good the tone is........if the intonation is wacked then it's not worth the fight in my opinion. If it's a little off that's one thing but if you have notes going all over the place that's another.
 
#15 ·
The throat Ab is flat, as are the F and E at the top of the staff. The C# (below staff) is stuffy. I noticed the Ab the most but teacher noticed the F nad E and that bothered her the most. It is a large bore horn also so pitch is more variable than my Yamaha. There is a guy in SF who says he can fix most of this. I'm debating whether to throw the money at it. Most horns you trial or buy have a 3 to 5 day trial period. This one had a 5 day but I didn't have a lesson last week or I would have had her try it. When I played it I was aware of "low" notes but thought that I could increase airspeed to raise the pitch. As far as how low they are around 15 cents off flat. A few minor sharp notes. My teacher has watched me buy a few horns and basically says skip the bad intermediate horns and wait for the ones like Trice said. Decent in the 1000 dollar range. I;ll contact that guy in SF today and see what he thinks it would cost to fix this. K
 
#21 ·
The throat Ab is flat, as are the F and E at the top of the staff. The C# (below staff) is stuffy. I noticed the Ab the most but teacher noticed the F nad E and that bothered her the most.
I guess depending on how mechanical are you and what you afraid to do... can you remove the throat G# key from the clarinet and try this note that way? If you can, how is the intonation of it then?

For the E and F, check the same fingerings in the low register, A and Bb. What is their intonation like in comparison with the E and F and also with the rest of the instrument?

C# below the staff is a slightly stuffy note on almost all clarinets. It is better on some than on others. If the key is too low it can be improved by opening it more or some other ways. Stuffy notes like these are even more stuffy if the reed is a bit too hard.

As far as fixing intonation issues on clarinets, it might be expensive but maybe not, it really depends on what the problems and solutions (if there are any) are.
 
#17 ·
The stuffy throat Ab can be addressed by increasing the opening the A and Ab keys, although it may add to the sharpness of the throat A in doing so. The stuffy C# can be addressed by increasing the C#/G# key opening to allow more venting as well.

The more serious issues are with the F and E. If they are 15+ cents flat with the rest of the tuning close and the clarinet is warmed up it is going to be difficult to lip those notes up to be in tune. I would check the pitches of the low A and Bb with the tuner, and then add the register key while blowing faster air to see the pitch relationships of the 12ths. This is just a wild guess because I haven't done this before, but opening the register key a bit and/or beveling the cork pad in the register key might have an effect upon the pitch of the upper note of these 12ths. Beyond doing that I suspect you are looking at some serious tonehole modifications to correct the tuning.

Maybe stevesklar can join in and provide some answers. He seems to be very knowledgeable about addressing clarinet intonation issues.
 
#18 ·
Tuning work is expensive, maybe too much so to justify for the horn in question. And you don't want a horn that many "issues" getting in the way of your playing. Tone and intonation are one and the same, so by doing embouchure and fingering manipulations to overcome the horn's problems, you will likely compromise the consistency of your tone quality. Make that Yamaha play porky. I think you can overcome whatever tonal difference you're hearing between the Yamaha and the Thibouville. A different mouthpiece/barrel combo might help, too.
 
#19 ·
I'd say try a shorter barrell but then all your other notes will be 15 cents sharp or more so that won't help. I say get a more in tune clarinet. There is no way to get a note that is 15 cents flat up to pitch with air stream. That's too much. Clarinet is all ready a tight embouchure so you can't tighten on those notes to get them up either.
 
#22 ·
Intonation of a clarinet is a much more difficult problem to deal with than tone. With the right embouchure, support, mouthpiece, reed, and barrel you can get a decent tone out of just about anything. To address intonation and stuffy notes, you have to have all of that and then be able to work with the instrument. Distortion of the bore, sizes of tone holes, and venting come into play here, too. Obviously, without extensive experience and specialized tools, venting is the only one of these that can be reasonably addressed. Venting may not be as easily done as it might seem. It is not uncommon that a venting problem may involve a pad or key that does not seem to have any relation to the note with the problem. I do my own clarinet repairs and, with a used instrument, start by doing what I can to correct any previous lack of maintenance. I start by taking off all the keys and speaker tube and, with a bore brush from Ferree's and wood cleaner from The Doctor's Products, I throughly clean the bore and tenons of each piece. Then, at the suggestion of The Doctor, I use a clean mascara brush with the same cleaning solution to scrub the tone holes and rims while they are still damp. If necessary, a brush can be put on an extension and bent as needed to get to undercutting from the bore.

The speaker tube is carefully cleaned with a pipe cleaner and reinstalled using bees wax to seal it in place. When I have finished doing whatever I am going to do to the keys (cleaning, polishing, straightening, swedging, etc.) I reinstall them and replace or adjust pads as needed. At this point, I can start dealing with venting to adjust tone and intonation knowing that an accumulation of gunk in the instrument is not working against me.

I would agree with the above suggestions that you have your teacher try out your new instrument. At that point, if it seems worth putting more money into it, find a good tech to work on it. If you plan to use it as your primary instrument, I doubt you want to attack it yourself after only two years of playing clarinet.
 
#24 ·
I don't know if you want to hear my opinion, but you're going to get it anyway. :)

Keep the Thibby and play it. If you like the sound and the intonation 'issues' are small that's all that counts.
Your teacher has no business telling you what to play.
I have clarinets that are OLD and clarinets that are 'modern'. Every single one of them has a few little quirks.
If you put in the time you'll find where they are and what you need to do to accomodate for them. Lip up a little, lip down, alternate fingering....

Right now I'm in the pit for HMS Pinafore. There are parts written for 'clarinet in A'. My *A* clarinet is a 1930s' Selmer.
Intonation is a little different than my 2000something Signature (Bb) but it's nothing that I can't compensate for. I like its voice, I can play it 'in tune', and that's all that is important.

Keep it, play it, and enjoy it's sweet little voice. That's what I think.
 
#25 ·
I don't know if you want to hear my opinion, but you're going to get it anyway. :)

Keep the Thibby and play it. If you like the sound and the intonation 'issues' are small that's all that counts.
Your teacher has no business telling you what to play.
I have clarinets that are OLD and clarinets that are 'modern'. Every single one of them has a few little quirks.
If you put in the time you'll find where they are and what you need to do to accommodate for them. Lip up a little, lip down, alternate fingering....

Right now I'm in the pit for HMS Pinafore. There are parts written for 'clarinet in A'. My *A* clarinet is a 1930s' Selmer.
Intonation is a little different than my 2000something Signature (Bb) but it's nothing that I can't compensate for. I like its voice, I can play it 'in tune', and that's all that is important.

Keep it, play it, and enjoy it's sweet little voice. That's what I think.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Why doesn't the teacher have any business telling him what to play? That's what he is paying her for isn't it? Her opinion...... I have a student now that is incredibly sharp up top on sax. I've given him tips for a year but it's getting better. I told him to buy a new sax with good intonation and save himself a couple years of wrestling with intonation. You want an instrument that is at least close to limit the work you have to do to get notes in tune in my opinion.
 
#26 ·
Hmm, define the "acceptable deviation"...is it one cent, ten, twenty? It is zero. But not compared to a tuner, but to an ensemble. What good is it when you play 100% accurate but cannot sense when you're out of tune with the rest of the gang who happens to be flat or sharp after half an hour?
Key is to learn to adapt, to blend in, tone and pitch wise. And there's so much more to consider, timing and rhythm being far more important that tuning.
Don't get obsessed with tuning, put on a shorter barrel and concentrate on being a good ensemble player.
 
#27 ·
Putting on a shorter barrel will bring the F and E up to pitch, then most of the other notes will be 15 cents sharp except those few he said were sharp to begin with, and they would be sharper than that. In my musical priorities intonation has to be #1 with tone quality a close 2nd since they are closely related. If I can't match pitch with the player next to me in an ensemble then the music doesn't sound good regardless of the timing and rhythm. Out of tune playing in perfect rhythm and tempo is still out of tune playing. There is no such thing as being close with intonation. It is like being pregnant. You are either in tune or you are not.
 
#28 ·
Putting on a shorter barrel will bring the F and E up to pitch, then most of the other notes will be 15 cents sharp except those few he said were sharp to begin with, and they would be sharper than that.
Not exactly, but hard to say more without actually seeing the instrument and playing it. A shorter barrel might help even if other notes are in tune and some are even sharp. Or it might not.

There is no such thing as being close with intonation. It is like being pregnant. You are either in tune or you are not.
I don't really agree with this. In addition, if you listen to the world's top clarinet players (classical or not) you can hear they are not completely in tune all the time.
 
#35 ·
i would have the clarinet looked at by a clarinet specialist, give them a budget and see if they can improve it. it may have new pads etc... but many general techs miss the finer points of intonation, does it make a sound with little resistance.... yes, OK .. on to the next clarinet, or trombone etc... or it could be old pads and need adjustment.

also if your teacher is willing to point out your intonation issues that is a good teacher who cares and is focused on what is important. i think it is generally agreed that most people would rather listen to a simple melody played with a beautiful tone, than the most technically difficult thing played with a less than beautiful sound... intonation is very big part of your SOUND... and it might have a great sound on a single note, but if you can't play it in tune, that is what people will hear when they listen to it.

as was said above i would get it looked it and just tell the tech what you are willing to spend. also you could mess with shorten barrels and different mouthpieces and see if you get improvements... or get a click barrel and see if you find a place where it plays in tune and go form there.
 
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