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After 8 years playing , still can't count while playing . HELP!!

23K views 38 replies 25 participants last post by  MNSaxMan 
#1 ·
Hi there to give you a good chance of helping me with this problem I need to give you a bit of my history with the sax so forgive me if it is a little long winded.

I took up the sax at the ripe old age of 45 and I am now 53 and had no previous musical training at all. I practiced every night for an hour for 5 years and had a handful of lessons (it’s nearly impossible to get any teachers in my home town} however did manage to find someone and had approx 10 lessons before he left town (hope my playing didn’t have anything to do with it).
In my 2nd year of playing I was very fortunate to get a chance to play 2nd alto in a 10 piece swing band were I was given a lot of encouragement and a lot of latitude to learn and over the next 2 years improved greatly and was able to fill the 2nd alto spot at what I would judge as alright standard.
I had to leave the band 18 months ago and I am just starting to practice again now and heres the problem I have found when trying to play music that I am not familiar with I have trouble and it’s because I don’t and can’t count while I am playing, I mean in the band I would count into my part alright and when playing 2, 3 and 4 beat notes I count but not 1/8 th notes etc.
In the band I was so familiar with the music I just knew how it went.
I have tried to count 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, but can’t seem to read the music and count at the same time off the beat notes are a real problem
Is there another method I could use?
Can any one give me some advice on this problem?
 
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#2 ·
Try working through Joe Viola's Book 3 I think, but anyway it's called Rhythm Studies. It starts out easy and gets harder. It will get you counting 1 and 2 and 3 and 4. It works for reading rhythms anyway. Probably get it from Berklee Press.
 
#3 ·
I don't think numbers. I think umm ah umm ah for a swing four.
 
#6 ·
Clap your hands on the beat and say "and" on the off beats while reading the notes. Get do that a half dozen times with the written music. Then introduce the metronome and repeat for a dozen or so times. Do this with the written music you know and then move on to the new stuff.
 
#7 ·
What music do you listen to?

I find that a lot of my students play more saxophone than they listen to it. If this is the case, the concept for how to keep time and swing within a musical phrase is limited. They get lost. If you do listen to music all day long, sit down and tap along with a recording. Start the recording in the middle and find the beat. Listen to other saxophonists' phrasing and how they work with the time. You can read all you want from books, but if you can't hear it or put it into context (keeping time while the music is going on) then they will probably not work for you. In my opinion.

We need to train our ears to find the beat, not our eyes to look for it. We are musicians and we have to be able to trust our ears.

Here's a list of players that I start my students on when we first start.

Zoot Sims - Zoot and the Gershwin Brothers
Lester Young - w/the Oscar Peterson Trio
Count Basie/Joe Turner - the Bosses
Dexter Gordon - Our Man In Paris

These are all pretty straight-ahead sessions, and the time in all of these recordings is brilliant. It also gives you a great lesson in tradition. As my students progress we get into Rollins, Coltrane, Liebman, Lovano, Brecker, Chris Potter etc. and they really see how the time-feel and improvisational qualities have evolved from generation to generation.

Hopefully this helps!

Good luck with the horn!
 
#9 ·
This is simple advice but 100% correct!

Once you can tap or clap to the beat then start worrying about strong beats, 4/4, 3/4 etc

You need to be able to get the basic beat first. I've known people (esp older students) really really struggle with this. I think they must be overthinking it. It should feel very natural, tapping to the beat. I think your sense of the basic beat needs to be stronger and more ingrained.
 
#16 ·
You could read a bunch of swing tunes out of BIAB to practice sight reading. In your practice you should always tap your foot to keep the beat. Always. 'Count' the count the downbeats during rest period, but while you're playing 'Keep' the beat.

You can practice your counting listening to the music you like. Just try to identify which beat phrases start and end on. Very difficult to do actually.
 
#17 ·
I was in the same boat as you Jim, no music background, and some rhythm issues. Gary's advice is brilliant for getting the rhythm internalised, but another thing that might help is a book that teaches different rhythms, with a CD so you can actually also hear it. I bought a book called The Rhythm Bible and it is helping me a lot.
I have included a link to the book depository for the hard cover version, they also have a cheaper paperback version.
http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9780739026779/The-Rhythm-Bible
 
#19 ·
Just keep tappin' that foot until you forget about it, you will begin to 'feel' the 'pulse'... You may notice some player's foot start tapping and then stop! They are not thinking about it... they just play and the pulse 'or beat, rhythm etc' is being felt, not thought... Keep tappin'...
 
#20 ·
Doesn't have to be your entire foot either... I usually just tap my big toe inside my shoe.

As an exercise, try patting your hand against your leg... once you get the tempo set with quarter notes, start patting 1/8 notes with the other hand. Variations (with things like 1/16ths and triplets) might even bring in one or two feet to go along, as you get better at it.
 
#21 ·
I might have read this thread wrong. Are you having problems counting bars or just keeping the beat? IF it's just keeping the beat - Listen. Find a rhythm element (Hi-hat, kick drum etc.) and lock in. Or tap your foot -whatever. The solution is simply to put more time into it until you're feeling it. IF your issue is counting bars so you know when to begin your part, that's a whole different thing.
 
#22 ·
I can tap my foot to the beat alright.
The problem is I can’t concentrate on the notes I am playing and get the off the beat notes and doted quarter notes in the right spot.
I have tried counting them but can’t seem to get it.
The foot tapping works fine on 1/4 , 1/2 and full beats.
Is there another way to get those notes played at the correct time.
 
#23 ·
Try playing a note rather than foot tapping on specific beats or parts of the beat. Just use one note, then get progressively more complex from there. Is it coordinating your sense of timing with reading music that's the problem? The more complications there are the harder it is to keep timing solid. So the only way to improve things that i know of is to simplify (eg play less notes, play slower, read simpler music but try to always be spot on etc). Hope this helps.
 
#24 ·
My solution - contact Tim Price, an SOTW member who gives lessons via SKYPE.
 
#25 ·
I see this thread is over 6 years old, but it has great advice, and information. Gary, those are simple steps to follow! My problem right now is I suck at counting AND playing at the same time! If I know the song (I read sheet music, I don't improvise yet) I am fine, if I do not know the song, game over!

After high school I hung up the sax, 18 years later I am back at it (6-7 months now I think), invested in a new Bari and still have my dads Tenor. If I look at the music, I know the value of all the notes, I can tap my foot to the beat, but counting in my head and playing those notes to their proper value....something is lost in translation, and I end up second guessing myself, which second guesses my notes...which make me stop playing before I make a complete fool of myself by playing the notes at the wrong time! So at this point I sometimes play longer tones on notes, or skip notes I don't like...which doesn't help my counting issue, but still sounds ok.

So I am in the process of re-learning, and I just hope I am doing it right. I will take some of the advice in this thread too. Any suggestions beyond what is here already?
 
#27 ·
I see this thread is over 6 years old, but it has great advice, and information. Gary, those are simple steps to follow! My problem right now is I suck at counting AND playing at the same time! If I know the song (I read sheet music, I don't improvise yet) I am fine, if I do not know the song, game over!

After high school I hung up the sax, 18 years later I am back at it (6-7 months now I think), invested in a new Bari and still have my dads Tenor. If I look at the music, I know the value of all the notes, I can tap my foot to the beat, but counting in my head and playing those notes to their proper value....something is lost in translation, and I end up second guessing myself, which second guesses my notes...which make me stop playing before I make a complete fool of myself by playing the notes at the wrong time! So at this point I sometimes play longer tones on notes, or skip notes I don't like...which doesn't help my counting issue, but still sounds ok.

So I am in the process of re-learning, and I just hope I am doing it right. I will take some of the advice in this thread too. Any suggestions beyond what is here already?
Consider reading/playing/shedding Fred Lipsius' "Reading Key Jazz Rhythms". Highly recommended.
 
#26 ·
I would say get a book full of counting exercises and dig in.

But i am good at counting, and fell right into it as a child.
What do i know? Not much ...

Get a book. Worst that can happen is you memorize a bunch of patterns,
And you can see and play a lot of stuff.

Dat
Sax
Man
 
#28 ·
One thing that is really helpful is learning to recognize certain patterns that recur over and over in jazz (and other music, too). This not only helps with your reading, it helps you to hear and play musical phrases as a whole, rather just note by note. To some degree this just comes with experience, but there are also some books that can be helpful in teaching you to recognize these patterns. 'Reading Key Jazz Rhythms' by Fred Lipsius comes to mind.
 
#29 ·
DSM, Do you have any specific books in mind, or just any book that has mostly counting in it? (There is a local music shop in the town I work in, also where I purchased my Bari, I am sure they have something). Also, two websites (besides lots of reading on here) I have been visiting are these two: https://www.musictheory.net/ (lessons & exercises) and the other one is http://www.childrensmusicworkshop.com/musictheory/ (lesson drop down menu). I am just waiting for that day it just "clicks" for me, and hope it happens sooner than later!

Dr. G. I looked that one up just now, looks like it would also be valuable to also use as a learning tool. The one book/CD combo I have right now is the "Burklee Practice Method, Tenor Sax" https://www.amazon.com/Berklee-Practice-Method-Soprano-Together/dp/0634007890 which I have been practicing some on with my Tenor. I am not sure however, if this book/CD I have is really the best to be practicing for what I need?...

I have been playing 4-5 songs every Sunday at Church, piano sheet music, bass clef line with my Bari Sax. Heck, by this time most weeks I have already played the 5 songs at least twice. This week however I am studying the notes, keeping beat by foot tapping and clapping the note/rest values. Been trying to use my metronome app when I can also. I am at the point now I want to play it all correct, and not use longer tones or skip notes, so I am studying the music right now, I might play later this week after studying the music more.
 
#30 ·
Dr. G. I looked that one up just now, looks like it would also be valuable to also use as a learning tool. The one book/CD combo I have right now is the "Burklee Practice Method, Tenor Sax" https://www.amazon.com/Berklee-Practice-Method-Soprano-Together/dp/0634007890 which I have been practicing some on with my Tenor. I am not sure however, if this book/CD I have is really the best to be practicing for what I need?...
From what I was able to see of that particular Berkeley Practice Method, I don't care for it. Lipsius' book focuses on your explicit challenge, and does it very well.

I have been playing 4-5 songs every Sunday at Church, piano sheet music, bass clef line with my Bari Sax. Heck, by this time most weeks I have already played the 5 songs at least twice. This week however I am studying the notes, keeping beat by foot tapping and clapping the note/rest values. Been trying to use my metronome app when I can also. I am at the point now I want to play it all correct, and not use longer tones or skip notes, so I am studying the music right now, I might play later this week after studying the music more.
You're on the right track regarding motivation. Break down the music to individual phrases, slow it down until you can play it right, then slowly come up to tempo - then string together the fragments and phrases to make longer bits that you can play well. Don't reinforce broken phrases by beating yourself up in the hopes that it will eventually come out right. It seldom happens that way.

G'luck!
 
#32 ·
You don't need a saxophone teacher, just a general music teacher, to deal with this problem.

Don't feel bad, it's my opinion that the standard music notation does not do a very good job of describing rhythm (whereas it is very clear what pitch each note is). I say this as someone who has never had any trouble sightreading rhythms, but I have tried to teach others how to interpret what they see on the page and turn it into rhythmic patterns, and the code is pretty complicated. You also get into the fact that different genres have slightly different ways to notate the same rhythm (for example, choral music often has long strings of unconnected eighth notes each with its own flag; the jazz convention that when you see the last eighth note of the bar tied across the bar line to the first one of the next bar the note is played short, etc.).
 
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