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William J. Gronert

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#1 · (Edited)
A vast number of my researches reached a blind alley. Often I got answers on questions I never asked. Nevertheless I found some of these answers interesting enough to add to my records. Here is one:

W.J. Gronert

The original inquiry was to find out where E.A. Couturier got the knowlege to build saxophones. At the beginning twenties he was urgently asked by retailers to add the saxophone to his line of instruments. He didn't seriously consider that until 1922.

No matter of question in his development of saxophones he realized his very own concept of an extremly wide and consequently conical bored instrument. Nevertheless he must have built upon knowledge from other people.

I knew he maintained valuable contacts to Holton and York and had excellent connections to Conn early in the 20th century. And he knew William J. Gronert, Conn's factory manager, business manager and general manager around 1900 at least until the great fire 1910, which destroyed the Conn factory completely.

Here is a note written 1905 in The Music Trade Review:

"TRY TO SURPRISE C. G. CONN.

When Bandmaster Couturier was in Elkhart,
Ind., recently, he and W. J. Gronert attempted to
surprise C. G. Conn at his home, northeast of the
city, going there in a band wagon and two carry-alls.
The intended victim, however, had divised
a plot, and had fortified his house with a supply
of refreshments. After several selections had
been played by torchlight on the lawn, the musicians
were invited into the house and were
served by the host's two Japanese man-servants.
They also spent some time admiring the handsome
paintings that ornament the house. Couturier
was in Elkhart having some work done
at the Conn factory."

to be continued
 
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#2 ·
Please forgive my digressive description, but I find Conn's profit sharing system that remarkable, that I couldn't resist. Let me come back to a focussed view on Mr. Gronert.

"The Conn Reunion.

The annual reunion of the employees of C. G. Conn, band instrument manufacturer, held at Elkhart, Ind., on the evening of January 29th, was, as usual, a memorable one. Aside from the grand entertainment that was presented, it was the occasion of the fifth annual distribution of the profits of the factory which had accrued during the past year. It was also the event of Mr. Conn's 52d birthday, and the anniversary of the destruction of the factory by fire and its immediate reconstruction.

It is a well-known fact that the band instrument factory is conducted upon the broad principles of co-operation. Every employee in the factory is interested in the general results to an extent proportionate to the years he has been employed, and the faithfulness of his individual efforts to advance the general welfare of the institution. Mr. Conn has always been very liberal to the laboring man, and each year he seems to broaden more and more his views upon the labor problem.

A FORTUNE GIVEN AWAY.
During the five years which the profitsharing scheme has been in operation, Mr. Conn has given to his employees, in addition to their regular wages, the enormous sum of$59,115.20. These figures go to show that a fortune has been divided among the fortunate employees of his factory. The first year in which the piofitsharing system was inaugurated, 1892, the sum of $8,860 was given away. In 1893 the amount was $14,830; in 1894, $12,533.- 20; 1895, $13,500, and this )'ear the sum of $9,392 was distributed among 147 employees.

Although the dividend this year did not figure up as high as in former years, still the amount was a snug sum. The reason given for the profits not being so large this year as in former years, is attributed greatly to the stringent financial market. This year, however, is looked forward to with greater results. All doubts have been set at rest as regards the feasibility of the profit-sharing system. The first was tried as an experiment, but proved so satisfactory to all concerned, that it will always be maintained by Mr. Conn in his factory.

It is a happy solution to the vexing question between capital and labor. There is probably no institution in this country today that enjoys a greater confidence and good will between employer and employee as the Conn band instrument factory, as a direct result of the profitsharing system introduced by Mr. Conn. All employees are equal partners in this mammoth concern. Their interests are his interests. Mr. Conn has done much for the welfare of the laboring man, and he is deservedly popular with the masses. The only mar to the evening's enjoyment was Mr. Conn's absence. His presence would have done much to enliven the occasion, and great disappointment was expressed because he was detained at Washington.

During the course of the evening's event, Mr. Conn was presented by the employees as a token of their esteem and friendship, with a handsome porcelain Jardiniere, elegantly decorated in gold. The gift was indeed beautiful. After an unusually fine musical program had been enjoyed, W. J. Gronert, the able lieutenant of Mr. Conn, made a short but happily-worded address, in which he gave in detail the success of the factory during the past year, and the amount of the profits to be distributed. He also read the following letter from Mr. Conn, which was enthusiastically applauded:

WASHINGTON, D. C, Jan. 28, '96.
MY DEAR FRIENDS:
I am greatly disappointed that business affairs
here will not permit my being with you this evening
also that the hard times have diminished the
profits of the factory and lessened your dividends.
The first disappointment is of minor importance,
however, when considered in comparison with the
one that relates to the latter. Heretofore I have
endeavored to take a hopeful view of the future and
to look forward to brighter prospects. But this
year I can only advise economy in expenditures
and to ask that you unite in decreasing the cost of
manufacturing as much as possible. We have a
campaign year before us which will increase the
demand for instruments, but unless there is a
change in the financial policy of the government
we cannot hope for our old time prosperity. I ex-
pect to establish a sales depot in New York some
time in the near future, also to arrange for opening
a conservatory of music in Elkhart, both of which
will increase our sales, but the demand for instru-
ments will not be so great as in years past until there
is more money in circulation. Within a short time
I hope to be released from the duties that now de-
mand such close application to work here. I shall
then devote my entire attention to affairs of the
factory and be able to renew the associations which
have been so pleasant and which have endeared us
to each other. It seems a long time since I have
taken an active part in factory work but it is a pleas-
ure to know that the business has not suffered in my
absence. Both Mrs. Conn and myself once again
express our regrets at not being able to be present
at the anniversary this evening, but through Mr.
Gronert we send assurances of our best wishes for
your welfare and our most sincere appreciation of
the friendship you have always manifested. Un-
less something unforeseen occurs I shall have the
pleasure of seeing you within a very short time.
With kindest regards for yourself and families,
I am, truly yours,
C. G. CONN.

A number of telegrams and letters containing expressions of regret and good will were received during the evening."

THE MUSIC TRADE REVIEW 1896
 
#3 · (Edited)
#5 ·
Thank you for confirming this. That piece of a puzzle will be a good index of the real meaning of Gronert.

"W.J. Gronert ... worked for Conn from 1892-1909, serving as secretary and manager. In 1912 founded Elkhart Musical Instrument Co, and in 1916 started American Manufacturing Co, with Pedler. In 1917 or 18, he merged Elkhart Musical Instrument Co. into Martin and became Martin's general manager . He died in 1919, and Pedler renamed American Manufacturing Co, Harry Pedler Co." (Horn-u-Copia)

Can you see where this is going?
 
#6 ·
This is all very interesting, LaPorte. I particularly find the profit-sharing at Conn interesting. I gather that you're engaged in some scholarship on Couturier and Lyon & Healy, and possibly even some other manufacturers. I don't mean to sidetrack your thread, but do you know of any histories written on the early days of Conn? Pardon my laziness in asking rather than searching, but you seem to be a fount of information on these subjects.
 
#7 ·
#8 · (Edited)
I'm sorry, I've no histories on the early days of Conn recorded except those recited here.
 
#9 · (Edited)
What I like more writing contributions here than articles is the possibility to communicate. That's why I edited my original answers #8 and #9.
 
#10 ·
Back to W. J. Gronert:

C Melody #L595


This total view shows some more features and a particular neck.

 
#11 ·
Straight soldered-on toneholes: #L595

 
#12 ·
Straight soldered-on toneholes on a Martin 'Handcraft' alto #17499



There are three phases known*:

Phase 1 Sernr range 0-20k
- Straight toneholes

Phase 2 Sernr range 21k-81k
- Bevelled toneholes
- no front-F (Quick-F)

Phase 3 sernr range 81k-108k
- Bevelled toneholes
- front-F (aka Quick-F)
- high-C# adjuster

*Photo and text by Edwin van Druten

http://www.themartinstory.net/

I highly recommend this excellent homepage!
 
#14 ·
Yes, you do know the Martin saxophone! Did you ever come across a Martin HC with straight toneholes? The change seems to be around #18000.
 
#16 · (Edited)
That's great! Would you mind to provide some photos here?

Imo especially following views would be most helpful:

1. Bell engraving including floral elements
2. LH pinky cluster
3. Tonehole design
4. RH spatula keys / side Bb

maybe other views which might be interesting, you mentioned "some small details" which "look like a Martin". SN?

Thanks a lot!
 
#18 ·
Take your time.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I am pleased to see you here.:) We don't know exactly when this Gronert C melody was built. The Elkhart Musical Instrument Company existed from 1912 to 1917 when it was merged into the Martin Co. The demand for saxophones rushed since ca. 1915/16. Furthermore Gronert saxophones are very rare beasts which means they were built in a rather short period of time most probably near the end of the independant existance of the company. That is why I estimate this C melody being made ca. 1916/17.

I'm sorry, I was asleep, look my next post.
 
#21 ·
I was guessing it was made before 1926, but know nothing about Gronert. What is the earliest horn you know of with a two-piece side Bb key? I faintly remember this Gronert posted on Ebay about a year ago, where it was up for $500. Nothing happened and the seller, which might have been Leisuretime, put it back on the shelf in their store. Did someone we know buy it, and for how much? No way was I going to spend that kinda money on a rarity in such worn out condition. I was tempted because it has some nifty features: the bell brace up at the very top of the bell, the split side Bb lever, the long curved neck that seems oddly fat at the bottom, the Holton-like screw ring that probably was part of a corkless metal-to-metal sliding mpc (note extra long mpc area, like a Rudy) , the low Eb and C rollers that are fat in the middle and tapered to the ends, and finally, there's something odd about the body proportions that strikes my eye but I cannot describe. Perhaps Mr. Gronert was on to something, about 20 years before his time. Who owns this Gronert? I would like to know the bore size where the neck enters the body. More pictures, please!!
 
#22 ·
Note the 2-piece side Bb key, just like the C. I have not seen this on any horns this early.
I think there is good reason to pay our best attention to Walter's discovery. A two-piece side Bb on a saxophone from 1916/17 seems to me visionary.*

Who owns this Gronert?
I don't know.

I would like to know the bore size where the neck enters the body.
I would like to know, too.

More pictures, please!!






* Post #16 supplemented:

1. Bell engraving including floral elements
2. LH pinky cluster
3. Tonehole design
4. RH spatula keys / side Bb

Please don't be mad with me, Bruce Bailey!
 
#23 ·
The neck:


I will be back early in November:cat:
 
#24 ·
Another piece of the puzzle:

James Warren York's company in Michigan was renamed several times. Around 1917 - 1919 its name was J W York & Sons which is confirmed by following extract from a reliable Vintage Horn Catalog:

J W York & Sons Grand Rapids, Mich No.7 "Perfec-Tone" Cornet c.1915
J W York & Sons Grand Rapids, Mich Eb Tuba c. 1918
J W York & Sons Grand Rapids, Mich No.2 "Trumpet Model" Cornet c. 1923

Source: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze787q6/windshieldbug/id15.html

Back to the saxophone. The bell engraving on the following alto saxophone is:

J W York & Sons Grand Rapids Mich



 
#25 ·
More pictures. The serial number told by the seller is #18810





Any idea?
 
#27 ·
I am looking forward to your Martin HC C melody and what the comparison with the Gronert tells us.:mrgreen:
 
#30 ·
Digression: Martin Serial Number Lists

The differences between various lists are substantial. The consensus in the following two lists is the year 1919 and an according SN of ca. 17,200.

"There seems to be some controversy about this, mostly because the most common list, found at Lars Kirsmer's Music Trader, seems to be so wrong.
The list found at Edwin van Druten's Martin sax site seems to be much much closer based on everything I've seen.
The quick and dirty way, according to Dave Johnson, is to divide the serial number by 4000 and add that number to 1906 to get an approximate date of manufacture. It is pretty close.

There is also another list, provided me by Jon Lisbeth, assembled earlier by a group of Committee owners, that is apparently the state of the art, as far as it goes. This pretty much agrees with the Dutch sax guy's list.
• 1919: 17200 (This is the earliest that can be verified according to LeBlanc)
• 1921: 34100 - 40609
• 1922: 40610 - 47118

...

"There's another list from Rob Stewart in Arcadia, CA that's pretty close and adds about 19 years.
• 1919 17221
• 1920 19482
• 1921 19933-23781 ..."

http://www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/Martin Committee.html
 
#31 ·
The bell engraving of # 595L



The words are:

Elkhart Triumph
Made by
W.J.Gronert
Elkhart Musical
Inst CO.
Elkhart
IND​

 
#32 · (Edited)
2. Did Gronert build a complete line of saxophones before merging with Martin?

" ... I have a baritone sax that has been in my family for some years now... anyway, the name on it is " W J Gronert. ... " from saxquest Re: Conn Saxophone Models Timeline by djjroiid8 on 2/26/2009

Apparently he did! As Gronert saxophones are extremly rare, it's a safe assumption that he built saxophones only a couple of weeks before merging with Martin in the year 1917.

The questioner again:
"...I have hit a dead end.
when was it made approx?
what could it be worth? etc..."

Unsurprisingly he didn't get an answer.
 
#33 ·
4. Where is the missing link - a Martin saxophone with straight toneholes and a two-piece-side Bb?

From a Martin made C-melody wreckage Gretsch SN 18711





Judging from the guide instead of a post: a one-piece side Bb. Um ..:scratch:
 
#34 ·
Hi,

The search function didn't help very much, but I think this is a good place for this. You may (or may not) find this interesting.

We recently found this old sax in the attic. We know nothing about instruments btw. We're wanting to find as much info about it as possible, but I'm finding it difficult. The case has a CG Conn LTD plate on it but the bell is ingraved,

Elkhart-Triumph
-Made By-
W.J. Gronert
Elkhart
IND.

Under that it has a Union Lable stamp with 1521 directly below it. Any info you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Like I said, I know nothing.


Conn W. J. Gronert sax by Mr. Embrey, on Flickr


Conn W. J. Gronert sax by Mr. Embrey, on Flickr


Conn W. J. Gronert sax by Mr. Embrey, on Flickr
 
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