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Perfect Curved Bb Soprano

24K views 72 replies 14 participants last post by  szrank 
#1 ·
Finally ...

 
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1
#4 ·
#3 ·
Historically the unspectacular coming out of Lyon & Healy's curved soprano 1925 anticipates the change from the 'Couturier Model' to the 'Artist series'. We will see that in some respect this soprano became in its development a prototype of Lyon & Healy's 'Artist series', released 1926.
 
#6 ·
This soprano is keyed down to low Bb just like the straight soprano. The LH pinky key table includes Bb which is the lowest key seen in the ad on the left side (split bell). Further pictures will show this more detailed.
 
#8 ·
#10 ·
Looks like the G# and the C# are the same key, just with a little rectangle to pass as a G#.
 
#11 ·
That G#-C# lever opens both the G# and low C# pads. The downside is that if you are using the key like a modern horn, playing in A or other sharp keys, holding the key down (like using the articulated G#) will make Eb and D really sharp as it leves the C# pad open even when you are wanting only the G# key to be down. This, and the concave style of the lever, are common on all the Courturiers in the late 20s.
 
#13 ·
... The downside is that if you are using the key like a modern horn, playing in A or other sharp keys, holding the key down (like using the articulated G#) will make Eb and D really sharp as it leves the C# pad open even when you are wanting only the G# key to be down. ...
Good point!
 
#14 ·
#15 ·
Here is the second part of the ad from # 1:

 
#16 ·
Apparently not for collector's purposes only:



Steve Bowie playing the 'Perfect Curved' soprano.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Preliminary remark

The soprano saxophone we want to examine is known under the names ‘semi-curved soprano’, a (or the) ‘Perfect Curved’ soprano or just ‘curved soprano’. It is definately not a ‘saxello’. Hereafter I use the terms which Lyon & Healy used in their brochure and folder 1926 (‘curved soprano’ or ‘curved Bb soprano’) or ‘Perfect Curved’ soprano like in the ad introduced here or just ‘soprano’ - case by case.

The ‘Perfect Curved’ soprano is a saught-after collector’s item.
Rarity, an unusual shape and a ‘mysterious’ origin has ameliorated prices to the ridiculous or should I better say prices in comparison for e.g. a Lyon&Healy ‘Couturier Model’ alto are ridiculously low? The market determines.

Our examination will be led mainly by following questions:

Who made this soprano?
Who designed it?
Where was it built?
When was it made?
Does the range of serial numbers fit to a certain era?
Are there discriminable stages of development?
How is it related to Lyon & Healy’s other saxophones, models, series, is it a special edition model?
Was it provided in different finishes?
Are there second lines?
Was it stencilled by other companies?

I am confident we will find clear and correct answers.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Who made this soprano?
Who designed it?
Where was it built?
When was it made?
Lyon & Healy shows on page 14 in their brochure from 1926 "The Lyon & Healy Artist soprano saxophones - including the curved model:



On page twenty:

„... In the Lyon & Healy factory at LaPorte, Indiana is to be found the most modern machinery obtainable. ..."

Additional evidence:

"The Couturier Co., formerly the E.A. Couturier Co., Ltd, LaPorte, Ind, has been incorporated. The band industry ... was recently sold to Lyon & Healy, Chicago." Presto, February 23, 1924

or



Presto, March 1924
 
#19 ·
Conclusion: The 'Perfect Curved' soprano was made by Lyon & Healy in LaPorte, Indiana.

The statement in the article (Saxophone Journal vol 22, #3, nov/dec 1997, "Vintage Saxophone Revisted") by Paul Cohen, which claims Holton or Martin as being the manufacturer of the 'Perfect Curved' soprano ...

“The original ½ curved soprano was made by Holton, the ‘improved’ model, introduced soon after, was produced by Martin.”

... is obsolete.
 
#21 ·
Cheers! :) The work goes on.
 
#22 ·
Are there discriminable stages of development?

A section of the article mentioned above including a photo can be looked at here:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/...rano/thomsax/lyonandhealypefectcurved.jpg?o=1

Click 'zoom in' to get an enlargement.

Paul Cohen differentiates two versions of the Lyon & Healy curved Bb sopranos.
"The soprano on the left, with a two piece bell and impractical right hand [*] palm key design, was replaced with the soprano on the right, a Martin-made instrument with significant improvements."

*What is most probably meant here and visible on the photo are the left hand palm keys.

Regarding "Martin-made" see post #18 and #19.
 
#23 · (Edited)
'Intermediate Model' version keyed to high Eb:





Bow and bell are made of separate pieces.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Are there discriminable stages of development?
How is it related to Lyon & Healy's other saxophones, models, series, is it a special edition model?
Was it provided in different finishes?
Are there second lines?
Was it stencilled by other companies?

When saxpics.com was owned by Pete Hales, I came across some interesting email messages that had been archived about the L&H Artist Curved Soprano. IIRC, the emails mentioned that there were possibly 3 different versions of this horn out there ...
Yes, that coincides with my research.

Versions:

1. Prototype

'Short' neck
Couturier type LH key cluster
Keyed to high F
'Archaic' LH palm keys sharing one rod screw, virtually unplayable
Bow and bell segmented
Bad intonation reported in the upper register
Datum: Saxophone Journal vol 22, #3, nov/dec 1997, "Vintage Saxophone Revisited" by Paul Cohen

2. Intermediate Model

'Short' neck
Couturier type LH Key cluster
Keyed to high Eb
Interlocking LH palm keys sharing one rod screw
Bow and bell segmented
Intonation not known
Datum: #15778

3. Artist series

'Long' neck
Artist II type LH Key cluster, tight C#/G# coupling (see post #11 by Bruce Bailey)
Keyed to high F
Ergonomic LH palm keys; discrete rods
Bow and bell are one piece
Good intonation and sound quality
Datum: #18878
 
#25 · (Edited)
Are there discriminable stages of development?
How is it related to Lyon & Healy's other saxophones, models, series, is it a special edition model?
Was it provided in different finishes?
Are there second lines?
Was it stencilled by other companies?

2. Intermediate Model*

'Short' neck
Couturier type LH Key cluster
Keyed to high Eb
Interlocking LH palm keys sharing one rod screw



Characteristics:

1. It is obviously derived from the straight 'Couturier Model' soprano.

2. Built 1925 when the 'Couturier Model' was still built and before releasing the 'Artist' series.

3. The serial number #15778 matches the range of the 'Couturier Model' (ca. #12400 - #16500)

4. It has the same LH keycluster built already by the E.A.Couturier company 1923 on the straight soprano.

* Although the characteristics outlines good reasons to call this version a 'Couturier Model', I changed the name, see post # 35
 
#27 · (Edited)
Thank you, Steve. I am very happy that you are still playing your Couturier soprano saxophone.
 
#28 ·
Update

Steve Bowie playing the 'Perfect Curved Soprano'

 
#32 ·
Yes, I am happy the thread came back to life again.
 
#31 ·
... a picture of King Curtis playing this horn. ...
Steve, this brings to light fascinating new insight:

King Curtis played Couturier, not King!

The soprano saxophone denoted 'Saxello' in his albums is actually Lyon & Healy's soprano, curved model, alias 'Perfect Curved Soprano'.

Here is a review on his album "That lovin' Feeling" from 1966.
http://www.allmusic.com/album/that-lovin-feeling-r42286/review


Short after King Curtis changed to a modern straight soprano.
 
#33 ·
http://wn.com/King_Saxello

choose No.6 and you will hear King Curtis with his Lyon & Healy soprano saxophone curved model - enjoy!
 
#34 ·
Awesome sleuthing. Now I wonder about that failed high F prototype...did Couturier just go back and make it a high Eb horn to cut their losses?
 
#35 ·
... Now I wonder about that failed high F prototype...did Couturier just go back and make it a high Eb horn to cut their losses?
There is little info about the early models (Prototype, Intermediate Model). I think the earliest one was a real prototype, in this stadium not yet intended for the market. The Prototype didn't bare the personal hallmarks of Couturier, who left the Couturier Band Instrument Company late 1923. I don't even know if it has a serial number.

The Intermediate Model is extremely rare, too. Up to now there is only one evidenced example. This model was closer to the sister, the 'Couturier Model' straight soprano except the lack of high E and F. This is imo the main reason, why it was chanceless to be accepted by the saxophonists. If Couturier was personally involved in the development is not known. Therefore I changed the term from 'Couturier Model' to 'Intermediate Model', see #25.

Only the well-engineered Artist Model - keyed to high F - accomplished the needs of a professional player. This was played by King Curtis.

Artist model

'Long' neck
Artist II type LH Key cluster, tight C#/G# coupling (see post #11 by Bruce Bailey)
Keyed to high F
Ergonomic LH palm keys; discrete rods
Bow and bell are one piece
Good intonation and sound quality
Datum: #18878

 
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