Sideslipping or Approach Method - Page 8

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    Distinguished Member John_Dikeman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    Sorry, jumping on this thread late, and I admit I didn't read it all, but I think one of the key factors in side stepping (as I've always called it) has to do with the intervalic relationships within the phrases you are using. If you play a phrase which clearly outlines some kind of functional harmony, over different chords, if you resolve it strongly it will hold it's own as a pantonal idea. Also worth checking is George Garzone's triadic chromatic concept. There's a nice masterclass of him in Russia where he explains this concept in a simple way. A very down to earth, pragmatic approach to chromaticism.

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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    this is a cool and very easy concept that I want to start working on. He goes into playing outside about halfway through so watch the whole video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_vTTxOR_N8
    Don't do drugs. Do Overtones.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGPySDpoSiY

  4. #143
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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    Quote Originally Posted by littlewailer View Post
    this is a cool and very easy concept that I want to start working on. He goes into playing outside about halfway through so watch the whole video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_vTTxOR_N8
    Thanks for that one, littlewailer. Also, in the same general category, there's this (posted recently):

    https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...laying-Outside

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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Dikeman View Post
    Sorry, jumping on this thread late, and I admit I didn't read it all, but I think one of the key factors in side stepping (as I've always called it) has to do with the intervalic relationships within the phrases you are using. If you play a phrase which clearly outlines some kind of functional harmony, over different chords, if you resolve it strongly it will hold it's own as a pantonal idea. .
    Technique In -Out brings together the tonal and modal bases of melody and the fully non tonal speech melody , which originates from free jazz. It's quasi a jazz version of Schoenberg's Sprechgesang with digressions.

  6. #145
    Distinguished Member John_Dikeman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzman1945 View Post
    Technique In -Out brings together the tonal and modal bases of melody and the fully non tonal speech melody , which originates from free jazz. It's quasi a jazz version of Schoenberg's Sprechgesang with digressions.
    That's an interesting approach to playing out on changes. Normally, I use a more pantonal approach, which is what I consider sidestepping, as opposed to playing completely atonally. In fact, I think even in straight up free jazz completely atonal playing is extremely rare. If you hear someone like Ornette Coleman, it's actually very diatonic playing much of the time, just improvised in the moment, and sometimes with multiple key centers going on at once.
    I don't really hear anything atonal in Coltrane for instance.

    Here's the Garzone masterclass, which has a lot of interesting ideas. His approach to articulation is interesting. Also, I appreciate when he discusses performing on the road. That being a good musician isn't about killing when you're in the practice room, it's about how you play when you're jet lagged, had 4 hours sleep in the past 2 days, your reeds are **** and you've got a cold.
    Around 41:00 he talks about his triadic chromatic approach. This is one of the clearest and most practical explanations of this kind of playing I've heard.


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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Dikeman View Post
    Around 41:00 he talks about his triadic chromatic approach. This is one of the clearest and most practical explanations of this kind of playing I've heard.

    [video=youtube;d[/video]
    A good illustration of what I said: asymmetrically broken diatonic chords in a free chromatic order create a feeling of speech, not singing. How far is this from one of the first improvisation textbooks, where broken seventh chords were played once up, another time down. Up-down, up-down , right - left, right - left. Phrasing of smoothing-iron...
    I have worked with saxophonist and flutist who developed dodecaphonic phrasing ; for this he constructed a series of 12 notes, and then created a well-known dodecaphonic square of transpositions and transformations.

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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzman1945 View Post
    A good illustration of what I said: asymmetrically broken diatonic chords in a free chromatic order create a feeling of speech, not singing. How far is this from one of the first improvisation textbooks, where broken seventh chords were played once up, another time down. Up-down, up-down , right - left, right - left. Phrasing of smoothing-iron...
    I have worked with saxophonist and flutist who developed dodecaphonic phrasing ; for this he constructed a series of 12 notes, and then created a well-known dodecaphonic square of transpositions and transformations.
    I think it's a great concept to work from. And I don't mean to sound argumentative, I just like delving into these ideas! But for me there is still a big difference between 12 tonal music and atonal music. And I think the reason why Garzone's approach works so well over chord changes is because of the continuity of the triads and the chromatic shifts. This gives each triad, however it's inverted, a sense of familiarity that helps the ear cope with the dissonance and adds a sense of logic to the resolution when you do land back on the chord.
    Whereas with truly atonal music i think the 12 tone rows are carefully constructed to imply as little harmony as possible. So outlining triads of any sort would be avoided.

    I have known people that worked on improvising based on 12 tone rows. Actually, now that I think of it, Sergey Letov told me about a Russian text based on this very principal. Do you know what book this is? I'm curious if it was using 12 tone rows in a tonal or atonal way, or both.

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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Dikeman View Post
    That's an interesting approach to playing out on changes. Normally, I use a more pantonal approach, which is what I consider sidestepping, as opposed to playing completely atonally. In fact, I think even in straight up free jazz completely atonal playing is extremely rare. If you hear someone like Ornette Coleman, it's actually very diatonic playing much of the time, just improvised in the moment, and sometimes with multiple key centers going on at once.
    I don't really hear anything atonal in Coltrane for instance.

    Here's the Garzone masterclass, which has a lot of interesting ideas. His approach to articulation is interesting. Also, I appreciate when he discusses performing on the road. That being a good musician isn't about killing when you're in the practice room, it's about how you play when you're jet lagged, had 4 hours sleep in the past 2 days, your reeds are **** and you've got a cold.
    Around 41:00 he talks about his triadic chromatic approach. This is one of the clearest and most practical explanations of this kind of playing I've heard.

    + 1 GARZONE - He uses a chromatic triadic approach that I love. Also I used to take lessons from a gentleman, nay a genius called Charlie Banacos (deceased) from Boston MA. I have over 30 lessons documented and he gives you more than one tool to step out and comeback in.

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    Default Re: Sideslipping or Approach Method

    Quote Originally Posted by dawson View Post
    Also I used to take lessons from a gentleman, nay a genius called Charlie Banacos (deceased) from Boston MA. I have over 30 lessons documented and he gives you more than one tool to step out and comeback in.
    It is interesting, what approaches suggested Ch.B. Once I did an experiment on comp with a phrase of Bird : I shifted chromatically the majority of pitches, without changing the rhythm, form and melodic contour. I think that the general logic has remained, although, apparently, changes in the accompaniment are required.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75qDNxAtSGc

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Dikeman View Post
    Actually, now that I think of it, Sergey Letov told me about a Russian text based on this very principal. Do you know what book this is? I'm curious if it was using 12 tone rows in a tonal or atonal way, or both.
    Probably, it is a book Modern Improvisation: A Practical Guide for Piano
    by R. Stolyar (I wrote a review on it )
    https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Improv.../dp/1478243694

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