Sax on the Web Forum banner

the old juliard school Allard method

69K views 172 replies 46 participants last post by  Barrywin 
#1 ·
hi guys,
i decided to post a link to these written Joe Allard school saxophone lessons i made for someone.
They are basically what i remember of the first basic concept lessons from the old juliard school saxophone department.
my teacher george was a graduate student in the juliard saxophone department at the time of the lessons and one of joes best students.
only one saxophone student was accepted to do graduate work at juliard each year.
they might be helpfull for someone who wants to transition to allard school of playing
or if someone just wants to understand various allard school exercises like overtone exercises in the proper original context.
I'm not sure i have ever read these basics put together in writing before.
but one will often read about the overtone exercises out of context.
These lessons took place in the late 70s.
this is only the basic concepts and will suffer some loss in written form.
everything that came after revolved around these basic ideas.

http://patriot.net/~gary/sax/index.html
 
See less See more
#4 ·
Thanks, Gary! This is an excellent resource, if not for direct application on every detail, then also as a historical link to Allard's philosophy. Cool!
 
#9 ·
I still like that old Allard video from the 80's...I wish I could of met that guy. Luckily I had the next best thing...my teacher was a student of his--I got all the ol gems from him...He even had an exact replica of Allard's alto mouthpiece made from the Babbitt company--cool stuff
 
#10 ·
one thing i find so interesting about it is how many jazz guys came out of there. not exactly usual for a legit instrument program.
george used to tell me about an exercise the sax quartet would do where someone would stand in the center and using hand signals spell out changes
and they would improvise french style saxophone quartet music as a group on the spot.
whenever i woud try to play a legit sax thing at a lesson george would take it away or reach up a turn it over so i couldn't see it.
it was all about ear and singing through the horn.
whatever kind of music you wantd to play you were in "no reading allowed" land.

the reed making was also totally mind blowing. In the process of trying to teach it to me george would make me the best reeds i have ever played.
I would bring in the reed i was working on and it didn't play well and in about 3 minutes george would fix it and make it perfect.
it was bizarre. he would hold it up to the light and say something like here is the problem, see this fiber right there. it's stiffer than the others so you have to cut that one out.
then the reed would play perfect. one of the reeds he made lasted like 3 months. best reed i ever had ever.
i totally never understood what he was saying and to this day i never figured it out.
it was lke he was doing some kind of magic.
 
#12 ·
Just found this now. Looks like great stuff: really looking forward to digging into this! Thanks, Gary!
 
#13 ·
Just read the whole thing. A lot of it was like memory lane from my very first lessons with Scott Grimaldi when I was in 9th or 10th grade. Much of it I had forgotten, especially the thing about the reed by itself on your lip, so I really appreciate that you posted this. I know my teacher had me do that drill with a pencil, but the idea was the same. This thread should be a sticky! It would answer so many questions people have on other threads if they just practiced this stuff for a while. Sadly, probably only people who know Allard's name read this thread, and I'd bet that most of them have had a teacher who studied with him already. This stuff is great for everyone, but the n00bs would benefit SO MUCH!
 
This post has been deleted
#15 ·
The link is to unedited junk.
True, the way it was written could be improved for publication, but it looks like it's just lesson reminder notes.

There is some important stuff in there.

But then there's this:

"keep a reed in you pocket and do it alot." which gave me little chuckle.
 
#17 ·
I had noticed previously DanPerezSax you are a fellow Allard school player.
You even wrote about blowing into the end of the reed to test for bubbles on another thread.
that should be some kind of abstract test to see who is and who is not an extended allard student.
writing this junk (and yes it is junk) helped me reconnect with the past and fundamentals as well and helped me move forward a bit.
these very simple concepts really take years to unfold annd sink in. even today they still effect my playing in a positive way.
 
#18 ·
"keep a reed in you pocket and do it alot." which gave me little chuckle.
yes the reed is like a talisman and should be inscribed with secret hebrew words and carried in you pocket for magical protection from the plague as often as possible.

I know -- there is a bunch of stuff in there like that. It's very hard for me to describe physical actions with words.
when i sent it to the guy i wrote it for in the first place he thought the point was to ballance the reed on his lip like a circus act.
so if even a fraction of the intended meaning comes through it's a miracle.
 
#20 ·
I did get and still have the original VHS tape and little booklet that came with it around the late 80's maybe i don't know but do remember trying the mouth shaping,tongue positions,breathing etc,filed the bottom of my front uneven teeth... i was scratching my head a lot and playing rewind on that damn tape till i just stopped one day thinking this is all about methods and concepts all thought out by this little old guy who has done it all since the 30's, he played with Arturo Toscanini among others. God that has to count for something and along the way with all modesty started a school that was not French or American way of playing saxophone, just Joseph Allard.
 
#21 ·
The point of the reed thing, for me, is that it trains your mind to feel that part of the horn without any extra pressure, without a mouthpiece or horn to complicate things, without the temptation to make a sound and try to "fix" it with lip or jaw pressure. It's a very powerful technique. The more you do it, the more ingrained it becomes, especially if you close your eyes and really focus on how it feels to have that reed just sitting there and if you simulate breathing over it like you're playing. It becomes very easy to put your teeth on the mouthpiece and mentally prepare yourself for that feeling and embouchure position without any extra tension, and then easy to produce this huge open sound you get by doing that. Just my $.02.

Garyjones, man, you've been digging through these forums! I don't even remember where I wrote anything like that. I have to say I never had the opportunity to study with Joe Allard, he was before my time. However my privtate teacher in high school, and the man I still think of as "my teacher" did, and I think anybody who comes through NJ should try to take a lesson with Scott Grimaldi because he's a fantastic teacher!
 
#23 ·
The lip thing is part of Joe's thing to. "Grabbing the reed" with the lip.
I think Allard's experience with the bass clarinet led him to this technique.

This is all cool, moving the jaw a bit is too, the point is, to do it w/o any PRESSURE or TENSION.

This stuff comes later. The stuff Jones posted is the initial Joe Allard beginning concepts, but isn't the entire thing.

You really need to get this from a teacher...remember Allard tailored his stuff to meet the needs of the individual student...I've studied or talked with about 7 - 10 different ex-students, and have found the same recurring concepts, but a some different exercises.

Dave Tofani in NJ is the guy that is recognized as the "heir" to the Allard thing--at least has the most knowledge of his concepts....Brecker himself used to go to him, over the years, when he felt his chops being weird & not right, for some coaching & quick "check-up"
 
#24 ·
BTW, it was interesting to see Steve Grossman a few months back in NYC. (1st time for me to see him live)
My friend & I commented on his "textbook" looking Allard embrochure / chops.

There's also a good YouTube video of Steve Marcus, w/Buddy Rich, in the 80s, tenor feature, with some good close-ups.
Its a nice illustration of the "reed grabbing" thing.
 
#26 ·
There's also a good YouTube video of Steve Marcus, w/Buddy Rich, in the 80s, tenor feature, with some good close-ups.
Its a nice illustration of the "reed grabbing" thing.
Yeah I've seen this one. His embouchure is very similar to Brecker's. For reference purposes : Steve Marcus w/Buddy Rich and Brecker
In the video with Steve Marcus, see how he swallows the reed at around 1:24 - 26 to get those altissimo notes.

The link is to unedited junk. There's no punctuation or capitalization, making it very difficult to read.
By the way, I've formatted the text and images with paragraphs, titles and lists and I've made a .pdf file you can get here : http://www.mediafire.com/file/jvreuzmyydj/Joe Allard Basic Principles.pdf Let me know if it can be improved or if it's ok like it is.
 
#25 ·
When you guys play, can you feel the reed vibrating on the surface of your bottom lip?

R.
 
#30 ·
Yes, of course.

1st step is feeling it, (and not letting that feeling freak you out, btw), then control or manipulate the vibrations to a certain extent & "playing" with that feeling to obtain different tonal colors & sounds.

The whole point is to pretty much eliminate the lip as a factor, just as a seal, and focus on the air stream & throat (larynx) to control pitch.
 
#32 ·
This covers something I've really wondered about. In playing the mouthpiece alone it says:

"Practice singing a note or an interval or series of notes. Think about how you body automatically adjusts itself to make the different notes when you are singing. This is the same mechanism you are going to use to play the different notes on the mouthpiece. Never change your mouth position in any way and keep your mouth perfectly relaxed and use the way you sing with you vocal cords to practice on the mouthpiece. Play scales, play songs, whatever."


I find it impossible to change pitch without some change in the jaw. Yes, the throat does change naturally in a similar way as it would when singing. Perhaps that helps with resonance but that doesn't seem to be what changes the pitch. I've heard this claim before (that the jaw does not change) so I'm interested in hearing from anyone who can actually do that on the mouthpiece alone.
 
#33 ·
This covers something I've really wondered about. In playing the mouthpiece alone it says:

"Practice singing a note or an interval or series of notes. Think about how you body automatically adjusts itself to make the different notes when you are singing. This is the same mechanism you are going to use to play the different notes on the mouthpiece. Never change your mouth position in any way and keep your mouth perfectly relaxed and use the way you sing with you vocal cords to practice on the mouthpiece. Play scales, play songs, whatever."

I find it impossible to change pitch without some change in the jaw. Yes, the throat does change naturally in a similar way as it would when singing. Perhaps that helps with resonance but that doesn't seem to be what changes the pitch. I've heard this claim before (that the jaw does not change) so I'm interested in hearing from anyone who can actually do that on the mouthpiece alone.
I can get about a P4th down on tenor without changing my jaw. I can go ~an octave if I do it with my jaw. Can't think why I'd need more than a P4th.

My teachers were all Teal rather than Allard students.
 
#38 ·
I was taught to move the jaw slightly forward to lower the pitch on the mouthpiece, and back to bring it up. Nothing too extreme, and NEVER dropping the jaw or biting to lower or raise the pitch. It's just a matter of how much reed is allowed to vibrate freely. Just like you can eat the mouthpiece to get a big bright tone or play with very little mouthpiece to soften it, moving the jaw forward and back has the same effect.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top