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the old juliard school Allard method

69K views 172 replies 46 participants last post by  Barrywin 
#1 ·
hi guys,
i decided to post a link to these written Joe Allard school saxophone lessons i made for someone.
They are basically what i remember of the first basic concept lessons from the old juliard school saxophone department.
my teacher george was a graduate student in the juliard saxophone department at the time of the lessons and one of joes best students.
only one saxophone student was accepted to do graduate work at juliard each year.
they might be helpfull for someone who wants to transition to allard school of playing
or if someone just wants to understand various allard school exercises like overtone exercises in the proper original context.
I'm not sure i have ever read these basics put together in writing before.
but one will often read about the overtone exercises out of context.
These lessons took place in the late 70s.
this is only the basic concepts and will suffer some loss in written form.
everything that came after revolved around these basic ideas.

http://patriot.net/~gary/sax/index.html
 
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#131 ·
Might be unnecessary motion, but I bet most alto sax players would trade a leg or two for a tone like he's getting. It would be great to hear some more comments on that "chewing" motion--the lack of tension in his embouchure is profound IMHO. This seems like an absolutely extraordinary example of what looks like the Allard "no embouchure embouchure" at work. Thanks so much for posting this link. What a player...and he looks like a kid to me!!!!

Totally inspiring and soul destroying in the same moment!

 
#136 ·
Actually, his jaw is not moving. Only the amount of reed covered by the lower lip is changing.. It can be done by moving the lower jaw back or taking in more or less mouthpiece. It's not the way I was taught, but I think it works well. Less reed covered for the low register and softer dynamics, more reed in mouth for higher register and loud playing. Besides, isn't it the results that matter. Great ideas, great control over the horn, fine intonation. He's doing exactly what he has to do and the results prove it. We are taught to play clarinet with an embouchure that doesn't change from low E through the altissimo. No motion at all. For many of us that embouchure doesn't transfer well to the saxophone.
 
#133 ·
He looks like he's not putting his teeth on the top of the mouthpiece so it's sliding around. You could just as well look at the video of the drummer and surmise he has too much tension in his shoulders while he is playing..........he sounds great but when you watch the video you get a sense that there is too much tension. Doesn't mean it's wrong but maybe not the best.............
 
#145 ·
I read the bit where the writer reported that Allard talked about 'cushioning' and less 'cushioning' in the manner of double reed players. I don't recall my oboe or bassoon teacher talking about this, but it was a long time ago.

Anyway, Allard is reported to have said that he preferred to accomplish this by having the mouthpiece move in and out slightly (because it changed his tongue position), but that it could be accomplished also by moving the jaw forward and back slightly, as Dan was talking about. I also read where Allard had a full set of dentures. This may have some bearing on his preference.
 
#146 ·
hi guys,
i decided to post a link to these written Joe Allard school saxophone lessons ...
http://patriot.net/~gary/sax/index.html
I'm sure this has been corrected a thousand times in among the many many pages of this thread, but for the benefit of those of us who arrive late to the conversation and to save us having to sift all the posts for the answer, is it possible to edit that first original post and correct this URL?

That link goes to a 404 Page Not Found error.
 
#148 ·
#149 ·
Let me know if anyone sees anything that I may have missed. It took some work to clean the text up that Gary Jones was so kind to write. I think that it is a very important document, so I'd like it to be as clean and clear as possible.

I would like to post any other exercises that came directly from Joe A., if anyone has any to add please let me know.
 
#151 · (Edited)
I think usually people find that the reeds they've been using are a bit too hard for them when they try to play this way.
EDIT: My reasoning is this: that people bite the reed because of a largely involuntary reflex triggered by the air pressure and the idea that they have to DO something to play a tone. If you are biting, you need a hard enough reed that it won't close up all the way. When you try to play the same reed without biting, you find it too inflexible to play on without the artificially smaller tip-opening you've given it by biting. That brings me to point number 2, that I believe that 90% of people playing on BIG HONKING mouthpieces out there do it because they bite the reed down enough to close off the facing and tip opening considerably. This is the reason I think I can play loud, clear and bright on a .72" alto piece or around a .100" tenor piece, when I know a lot of guys with a different approach to embouchure who need much larger tip openings and harder reeds.
 
#152 ·
Interesting, Dan---makes a lot of sense to me. Also explains a lot of what I have been working through with reeds and openings. I know I used to play with a very tight embouchure in college, playing a large opening piece with stiff reeds, and I was doing exactly what you describe. For the better part of the last ten years, I think I relaxed my embouchure to a point, but there was a still a focus point of tension for me in the embouchure. I feel like recently in rethinking this in both terms of relaxed embouchure as well as correct support I am understanding this in a way I could not have earlier. There is a lot of focus on mouthpieces on this site, but perhaps not nearly enough real in depth analysis of how you are playing whatever mouthpiece, and that goes as much for pros here as it does amateurs...
 
#153 ·
Hey, Dan, you've really added a lot to this thread, man. I appreciate your contributions here (and in other threads, for that matter): lots of thoughtful insight. Thanks!
 
#155 ·
Rory, I've done that Bb-A thing! As for the guitars, give it some time, and for a while you will have to keep your brain focussed on embouchure which means you'll probably sound worse for a while. Chop-changes aren't for the faint of heart! I will point out that, as your sound brightens and gains depth, you won't have to play as loud for your sound to project over the band. The higher presence of overtones in your sound will allow your tone to fill in gaps in the EQ of the band, so if the guitars cover the high-range and the vox cover the mids, your sound will sneak in between the cracks and still be heard in the house. This is, I think why you can hear saxes in a big band playing FF, though the tpts and bones are louder.

Kelly, thanks, dude. I try.
 
#161 ·
Rory, I've done that Bb-A thing! As for the guitars, give it some time, and for a while you will have to keep your brain focussed on embouchure which means you'll probably sound worse for a while. Chop-changes aren't for the faint of heart! I will point out that, as your sound brightens and gains depth, you won't have to play as loud for your sound to project over the band. The higher presence of overtones in your sound will allow your tone to fill in gaps in the EQ of the band, so if the guitars cover the high-range and the vox cover the mids, your sound will sneak in between the cracks and still be heard in the house. This is, I think why you can hear saxes in a big band playing FF, though the tpts and bones are louder.
I hear what you're saying! Since I've really started experimenting with this I've only had a couple of chances to play live. It's my goal for the next six months or so to get this business out of the practice studio and onto the stage. I'm doing pretty well with the low to medium register, but when I go for high notes it's back to the clench. It's so hard to break the habit of using jaw more pressure above high D!

I put this in another thread, but I've been trying to use this video as a kind of inspiration/mnemonic: I think Sanders' embouchure and tone here is just perfect!

 
#157 ·
Makes no sense to me at all. I use a big open tip mouthpiece on tenor because I use the whole tip opening for a wide gamut of expression I need to get in my work. Simple as that. I don't bite to close the reed off as that would destroy the whole point of using a wide tip as it would end up like a narrower tip and not have the versatility of expression I need.
 
#159 ·
It certainly doesn't make sense to close off the reed, for the reason you stated. You may not do it, but there are people who do -- I was one of them -- and their lack of awareness about the behavior interferes with their ability to bring logic to bear and correct it.

And regardless of the success you have had in achieving a wide gamut of expression using a very open mouthpiece, I would venture to say that there are saxophonists out there who are able to achieve a comparably wide gamut of expression using a more modest setup. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
 
#158 ·
Hence the 90% thing, Pete. To "destroy the whole point of using a wide tip..." proves that my theory does make sense to you. You understand it completely: "it would end up like a narrower tip and not have the versatility of expression that I need," corresponds to "When you try to play the same reed without biting, you find it too inflexible to play on without the artificially smaller tip-opening you've given it by biting." I'm not saying that biting is the right way to play, just that this is why I think people who bite like wide tips.
 
#162 ·
High notes are tough, but for those, I've got two good methods. First, slide from overtone D or F down to low Bb and back up. By "slide," I mean slur from the overtone to the fundamental. Then do tone-matching long-tones between the overtone D or F and the regular fingering, maintaining the relaxed feel.

Two, is a series of long tone exercises that Tim Price posted a while ago. I do the ones based off of Bb every day. Great stuff! http://www.timpricejazz.com/lessons/sax_warmup.pdf
Make sure to play each note LOOOOOONG. Forget that they say quarter notes!
 
#169 ·
Back in 1950, before the Juilliard days and when his studio was across from the Radio City Music Hall, Joe would "harden" a soft reed by wetting it, slapping it against the window to check the grain, and then rub grit from his window sill into the reed till it reached the required hardness. He felt that this little trick extended the life of an otherwise good reed. Also, back then, Joe never used cork grease; instead, he used vaseline from a small tube he always kept on hand
 
#170 ·
Hey everyone, I was reading through an old post of mine (2010) on the teachings of Joe Allard from this thread and decided to update it to make it easier to read. I added some content, photos, as well as some much needed editing to make it easier to read. It is much improved! Enjoy! If you are interested in saxophone playing and the Allard school of of saxophone pedagogy then you should check this post out.

An Inside Look into the Joe Allard Approach of Saxophone Playing: Memories of the First Three Lessons

 
#171 ·
hi guys,
i decided to post a link to these written Joe Allard school saxophone lessons i made for someone.
They are basically what i remember of the first basic concept lessons from the old juliard school saxophone department.
my teacher george was a graduate student in the juliard saxophone department at the time of the lessons and one of joes best students.
only one saxophone student was accepted to do graduate work at juliard each year.
they might be helpfull for someone who wants to transition to allard school of playing
or if someone just wants to understand various allard school exercises like overtone exercises in the proper original context.
I'm not sure i have ever read these basics put together in writing before.
but one will often read about the overtone exercises out of context.
These lessons took place in the late 70s.
this is only the basic concepts and will suffer some loss in written form.
everything that came after revolved around these basic ideas.

http://patriot.net/~gary/sax/index.html
The link does not work anymore :(
 
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