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the old juliard school Allard method

69K views 172 replies 46 participants last post by  Barrywin 
#1 ·
hi guys,
i decided to post a link to these written Joe Allard school saxophone lessons i made for someone.
They are basically what i remember of the first basic concept lessons from the old juliard school saxophone department.
my teacher george was a graduate student in the juliard saxophone department at the time of the lessons and one of joes best students.
only one saxophone student was accepted to do graduate work at juliard each year.
they might be helpfull for someone who wants to transition to allard school of playing
or if someone just wants to understand various allard school exercises like overtone exercises in the proper original context.
I'm not sure i have ever read these basics put together in writing before.
but one will often read about the overtone exercises out of context.
These lessons took place in the late 70s.
this is only the basic concepts and will suffer some loss in written form.
everything that came after revolved around these basic ideas.

http://patriot.net/~gary/sax/index.html
 
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#90 ·
Gary & Black Obelisk
I certainly did not mean to engender any negativity with any of my questions. And I frankly found a lot of the discussion to be very interesting. I'm very serious about understanding this and if we got off track it's enough to be guided back on topic without being told we are in "la la land", "BS" or "shooting down" anything.

I came here to learn something. I don't think it's too much to want to know why something works. I've been working on these concepts for a long time and I do not feel that I really know what's going on to my own satisfaction. I was happy to have the opportunity to discuss this. But I think I'll bow out now. And keep practicing...
 
#91 · (Edited by Moderator)
If you sincerely want to know further, you may have to have to look past the Internet and do what us old guys used to do to learn something, GO TO A THE SOURCE, A TEACHER.
If you are in NYC area, any of those 3 gentlemen (Tofani, Sterman, Dempsey and, if you are on Long Island, let me add, Glenn Guidone) could probably look & listen to your playing & satisfy all your questions.
Allard taught this concept on a one-to-one basis, & like the nature of most tone/physical exercises for wind instruments, must be worked on & explained that way. The Internet can only do so much.
 
#92 · (Edited by Moderator)
EE NYC (to restore)

If you sincerely want to know further, you may have to have to look past the Internet and do what us old guys used to do to learn something, GO TO A THE SOURCE, A TEACHER.
If you are in NYC area, any of those 3 gentlemen (Tofani, Sterman, Dempsey and, if you are on Long Island, let me add, Glenn Guidone) could probably look & listen to your playing & satisfy all your questions.
Allard taught this concept on a one-to-one basis, & like the nature of most tone/physical exercises for wind instruments, must be worked on & explained that way. The Internet can only do so much.
In my posts I made it clear that I have in fact studied with teachers who studied with Joe Allard. I'm here to discuss the ideas involved in this system. I've tried to be clear and keep the conversation focused on the ideas at hand.
 
#93 · (Edited by Moderator)
I agree that I'm not the guy to study from if you want to get Allard's concepts because, among other things, I've never met the guy. I'd add Scott Grimaldi to the list of guys you could study from who got it from the source. I can only teach what I know, and how I play. I'm open to new ideas, but I don't think that getting the correct tongue position is "BS."

Also, note in the video I made that "changing the tongue position to do these exercise" is what I call "the wrong way." I understand that you guys think of moving the jaw forward and back as "cheating," but that's the way I was taught. I don't want to get into a "my Allard-trained teacher is better than your Allard-trained teacher" match, since I already know my dad can beat up your dad. LOL I've also come to realize that a lot of guys studied with Allard and came away with different ideas. I remember having a conversation with Adam Niewood a couple years ago where we were talking about different ways of forming the embouchure and tongue position. Lo and behold, my way and his way were different, and we both said we learned them from guys who studied with Allard, who were both guys who knew and respected each other as well.

The bottom line is, if you get a great sound out of whatever you're doing, and you have the versatility and control to play pop, rock, blues, jazz, bossa, classical etc. on one setup, and you can get out a pp low Bb without subtone and still get out your altissimo notes, then you're on the right track.

Kelly, nobody ever put their fingers in my mouth, so I'm not about to do that to anyone else! If you want, we can meet up on Skype sometime and save you a 6 hour drive. PM me if you want, but remember, I can only show you the Dan Perez way, which is made up of influences from many teachers, and only what I understood and remember from those lessons. I'm not perfect, I'm not a physicist or acoustician, and I'm not a world-class sax player, just a regular guy.
 
#94 ·
I don't want to leave this thread on a bad vibe. I want to give this one last chance. If anyone feels this is a worthy question I'm happy to listen. Otherwise please pass it by and make no assumptions as to motive, intelligence or age. Ideas only please.

My understanding thus far...

Air comes up from the lungs, via the trachea and through the larynx where the vocal folds are engaged as when singing although they do not vibrate as such. From there, if we assume that the mouth, tongue and lips do not change in any way we are to produce a range of pitches on the mouthpiece alone, hopefully an octave or more with practice.

In order for pitch to change we know that pressure can be applied to the reed to vary pitch. We know that the length of the saxophone tube as manipulated by the keys also changes pitch. So that only leaves the air stream as it exists in our bodies. It must be changing in some way in order for the pitch to change. How?
 
#95 ·
I don't want to leave this thread on a bad vibe. I want to give this one last chance. If anyone feels this is a worthy question I'm happy to listen. Otherwise please pass it by and make no assumptions as to motive, intelligence or age. Ideas only please.

My understanding thus far...

Air comes up from the lungs, via the trachea and through the larynx where the vocal folds are engaged as when singing although they do not vibrate as such. From there, if we assume that the mouth, tongue and lips do not change in any way we are to produce a range of pitches on the mouthpiece alone, hopefully an octave or more with practice.

In order for pitch to change we know that pressure can be applied to the reed to vary pitch. We know that the length of the saxophone tube as manipulated by the keys also changes pitch. So that only leaves the air stream as it exists in our bodies. It must be changing in some way in order for the pitch to change. How?
Man, you guys are confusing me. I thought I was doing the Allard thing but now I'm not sure. I just played my tenor mouthpiece and it was a "G#" pitch. I bent the note down. I didn't move my lip or embouchure at all. I didn't move the front part of my tongue at all. I did feel movement way back. It feels like it's the very back of my tongue in my throat. It feels like when you sing going from a medium high note to a low note without moving your mouth or tongue at all. It's the same movement in my throat. I can get the note to bend down to an "A" sometimes "G#" if I try really hard almost an octave below. I always taught that this is movement of the very rear of the tongue. Is it actually something with the vocal chords moving?
 
#96 ·
Joe "tailored" his lessons to each individual students needs, that may account for some discrepancy among former students descriptions. The main concept is the same. I'm assuming Adams dad had lessons with Allard, at least he sounded like he had.

Please forget about the tongue. Here's the thing. I don't think about it. I don't use it, except for articulating...but not always:) (in jazz sax, imho, your fingers, the way you hit the keys & air stream contribute more to articulating & feel than tongue...the tongue's more for color...thats a whole 'nother thread.)

Here's the thing...you guys made me pull out my horn & blow some of these exercises & think about where my tongue is...its kinda back, in the "ahh" position...a bit.

But guess what? I played the same exercises with my tongue, flat on the bottom of my mouth...NO DIFFERENCE.
On the side...NO DIFFERENCE.

A Thomas Nyfenger (think "Allard of the Flute") flute exercise is to play a long tone, then move the tongue around, anywhere, touching different spots in your teeth, mouth, etc...while the not does NOT change AT ALL.
This is to make you aware of your tongue....and aware of its somewhat insignificance.

So...as for the tongue...as they say in parts of Bay Ridge & Bensonhurst...Fuggitta Bout it!!!!!
or in Midwood....Tongue? Schumgue? Feh!!
 
#109 ·
Joe "tailored" his lessons to each individual students needs, that may account for some discrepancy among former students descriptions.
This seems really true--for example:

http://www.inch.com/~rctabnik/allard.html

I hope folks will take a break from this thread rather than abandon it altogether. I'd still like to be able to post some questions about the application side of some of the more distinctive Allard practices, like the reed only drill.

I'd also like to be able to play like Pat Labarbera. :)

Peace,
R.
 
#97 ·
So that only leaves the air stream as it exists in our bodies. It must be changing in some way in order for the pitch to change. How?
your vocal chords create resonance that interacts with the resonance or sonic preasure created by the reed.
i do feel like i've said this quite a number of times now.
the other issue is that you cannot controll this consciously nor can anyone else.
you are simply going to have to let go of the notion that you can control it consciously.
the only mechanism is the mechanism of imagination and emotions.
i have also said that many times.
i'm not trying to be a jerk just as blackobolisk is not trying to be a jerk.
you keep asking the same question over and over again even after we answer it every way we know how.
keeping within the frameework of joes teachings its the only answer to give.

i think the real answer for you (i don't know you but am just going by what you say and how you seem to not "get it")
and this is what i would say if you were a student is to develope your powers of visualization and imagination.
Jewish mysticisms main method of meditation is visualization, sometimes guided visualization.
tibetian Buddhists do tons of lengthy visualizations.
modern day wiccans even do visualizations.
sometimes modern psychiatry uses very jewish style visualizations.
people who practice mind body medicine do self hypnosis that is essentialy visualization.
the list goes on and on.
pick one that you like and work with it.
 
#98 ·
I didn't move my lip or embouchure at all. I didn't move the front part of my tongue at all. I did feel movement way back. It feels like it's the very back of my tongue in my throat. It feels like when you sing going from a medium high note to a low note without moving your mouth or tongue at all. It's the same movement in my throat.
yes this is it. if you believe the allard method ideas then you are creating resonant resistance with your vocal chords. it feels just like singing because it is just like singing.
the vocal chords are creating resonance that is overiding the pitch comming off the reed.

you have developed this which means you are using it already but must not be aware of it.
you express anoyance, love, fear, allarm, all of your emotions in your voice through the mechanism of your vocal chords.
since you have learned to engage your vocal chords in your playing the same emotions now come through your saxophone using the same mechanism.

this is the heart and soul of what this is all about.
 
#101 ·
Thanks very much guys, this is helpful. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. Even if I manage to do this successfully I'd still like to feel that I understand what is happening mechanically even as realize I cannot control it directly. Maybe that's more than we can do here and I'm prepared to keep at this in one on one discussions with other knowledgeable folks.

I would really like to know just how the vocal cords are able to "overide the pitch coming off the reed", the mechanics of that.

By changing the shape and therefore the acoustic impedance (resonance) of the vocal tract (everything between the lungs and the reed).
You use the word resonance which makes a lot of sense. I've always thought that this is what helps create a good sound. But have never been able to wrap my head around the idea that this is what changes the pitch.

My sound does improve when I play the mouthpiece alone for some time. When I'm on vacation I take a mouthpiece along and when I come back to the horn it feels as if I never took any time off. My control and intonation improves as does my ability to play the overtone series. I know something is working here, I just don't fully understand how.

For myself, I've never trusted that there was no lip or jaw tension involved. In working hard to eliminate that factor I find that the pitch does not move on the mouthpiece when I keep everything else the same.

That's why I'm on this like a laser beam. I want to get to the bottom of it so that I feel confident when teaching others about the horn. I will be honest and tell you that there are folks who have said that anyone who claims to be able to change pitch on the mouthpiece alone without jaw position/pressure involved is fooling themselves. I'm not going to get into who said what, I'd like to keep this about ideas. Personally I've been keeping an open mind. That's why I was happy to see the topic come up here. I respect the fact that you guys have had this experience and I've come into this wanting to know more.

I've been playing awhile but have learned a great deal at SOTW as I recently got on old Conn tenor and it's inspired me to want to know more about the saxophone, things I always took for granted as a player. Due to the knowledge base here I've come to find out just how much I didn't know. I appreciate that very much and want to thank everyone who has contributed to the ideas in this thread and others in which I have participated.

I've gotta go out of town for a bit so may not be able to dive back in for awhile. Carry on...

Best
EE
 
#104 ·
I've been reading this with interest. I have a couple of questions for garyjones.

What is 'resonant resistance'? This is a new term for me.

My opinion: Allard was a great teacher.

If he were alive I think he would agree that the vocal folds are NOT engaged when playing sax. edit: I take this back, he apparently did think this.
 
#105 ·
Ignoring the question, as usual.

The notes you gave were nice, but you can't just make up terms.

From what I've read, Allard really knew physiology--at least as it pertains to tone production. I've never read anything where the vocal folds were a part of the equation.

If that's trolling, then I admit guilt.
 
#106 ·
this is a quote from Dave Leibmans book "Developing a personal Saxophone sound" which is his book about the Allard method.
Dave Leibman actually talked to Joe Allard about this where hakukani and mrfry obviously did not.
Exactly how hakukani and mrfry know these things are false without ever studying with a teacher in this system is a mystery for the ages.
their motives for diverting this thread by saying the core allard ideas are invalid is a little easier to understand but a bit disgusting.
you have to have compassion and figure pain and bad childhoods and such are involed in it somehow.
It is because of this nutty crap that goes on here like this that i hesitated to post this stuff here at all.
but i say lets just blow past it. and keep the thread real.
written by Dave Liebman page 14 for anyone who is intersted in the truth about Joe allards concepts.

If you play one note on the saxophone through the dynamic range from a whisper to a scream and keep it in tune, all four possible movements of the vocal chords are involved.
elongation, shortening, contraction, and expansion.
It is the minute fibers of the vocal folds which are actually bringing about the movement.
All of these motions interact in a complicated, sinuous back and forth movement similar to the vibrating lips of a brass instrument.
A train of air impulses is fed into the vocal tract at different frequencies of vibration.
Some tones are attenuated, others accentuated.
There is great controll over these emitted frequencies over a wide range of at least two octaves, making it possible to produce an infinite number of sounds and in turn, expressive colors.
 
#107 ·
alas not one person went there.
Really? Is that how you feel about the thread? I find many discussions have been heating up way too fast recently - I have to agree with you on that. But you admittedly are part of the reason for the presence of animosity. I wonder how well you guys do socially in the real world. From my point of view, most people, including the ones who have asked questions, raised objections and shared doubts have been "trying to figure it out".
 
#108 ·
OK, I'll agree that Liebs thinks that the vocal folds are involved, and Liebs studied with Allard, therefore Allard probably believed that the vocal folds are involved. I'm still not convinced.

I said that I had never read it. Well, I haven't read Lieb's book, but I have spoken to several of Allard system students, and the vocal folds were never mentioned. The only time I've talked to Liebs at length it was about jazz theory and African drumming, Trane, and some other fun things, and not so fun things, not saxophone sound production.

I'd certainly like to see the physio data on whether this is true, but I admit, I don't know every part that's involved. Actually, it would be pretty nifty if it were shown that the vocal folds are involved. It would support my notion that harmonic singing/Tuvan throat singing is a good exercise for a saxophonist.

Also, I apologize, because I put neither Joe Allard,Larry Teal, nor Sigurd Rascher on a pedestal, other than the fact that they deserve a great deal of respect as saxophone teachers. If a person does this, then it becomes dogma, IMO. There are more than one way to skin a cat--or teach a sax.

Also, according to the physio that I've read, the false vocal folds are involved in resonance. How does that work in Allard's system?

So, what is 'resonant resistance'?
 
#111 ·
Man, I think I'm an Allard student by accident. I just read this whole thread and a bunch of stuff off the Allard website and it all seems to be the way I play. I've been teaching for awhile now and the bending notes concept with the throat is the hardest thing to convey. I've always taught that the back of the tongue moves down and the direction of the air stream changes and that is what brings the pitch of the mouthpiece down. If it is something to do with the vocal chords I am very interested in knowing that. The movement and feel is just like singing without the sound. I still don't understand how vibrations of the vocal cords would affect the air stream and pitch produced but I would love to understand why this happens. Thanks again Gary for this thread. Steve
 
#112 ·
I studied with Joe Allard from 1977-1980. Please keep in mind when listening to what anybody says about the Joe Allard "method" that he was a real teacher. He did not have a "method" that he taught to everybody. He taught each individual what he thought they needed to know to improve, based on what he knew about the interaction between the saxophone and the human body, and what he observed in that particular individual, at that particular stage of their development.

For instance, some people will say that Joe taught a lot of stuff about breathing. We never did one breathing exercise, not because he didn't think breathing was important, but because I had no problem with breathing and there was no need for him to teach me about it. Bear in mind that anything anyone says about what Joe Allard taught is really about them and what they needed to learn as much as it is about Joe Allard's "method".

When I took lessons from him, he was not adamant about never moving the mouthpiece in or out. He advised not doing it in the beginning of learning the overtone series (through the 3rd or 4th overtone), so you could get the feeling of effortless changing between overtones, but he always noted that other people did the exercises quite effortlessly and with no tension while moving the mouthpiece in, particularly on the higher overtones, and he even had an explanation (which I don't remember) about how it changed the lip to make it easier to get the higher overtones to speak. He used Dave Liebman as an example of someone who moved the mouthpiece in and out and was very successful at it. As far as I remember, he never mentioned vocal chords as part of the process, he only said that the muscles that made the overtones change were muscles that you could not consciously control, and that they were the some of the same muscles that were used when singing, although this could easily have been as much metaphor as actual physical description. The key to the whole process was not how it was explained, but how it felt to do it correctly, and that is what he taught me. The only time he talked about tongue position to me was when he was talking about maximizing the air stream - pretty much how he talks about it in his video. I was experimenting at the time with making my saxophone playing more vocal - copying singers, etc. seeing if I could mimic them, and that involved a lot of playing around with timbral changes. He was as interested in seeing what I figured out about how to do it as I was.

He was a great proponent of doing what works, and would never tell me to do something because he said so. He would say to try it and see if it made me play/sound better. It almost always did. Also, he was someone who never stopped learning. Almost every lesson he would be excited about something new that he had learned. He always said "If I learn one new thing from reading a book, it was worthwhile."

So I would think that he was probably teaching differently, and explaining it differently, at different stages of his life.
 
#113 ·
He did not have a "method" that he taught to everybody. He taught each individual what he thought they needed to know to improve, based on what he knew about the interaction between the saxophone and the human body, and what he observed in that particular individual, at that particular stage of their development.

He was a great proponent of doing what works, and would never tell me to do something because he said so. He would say to try it and see if it made me play/sound better. It almost always did.
Those characteristics are the hallmarks of a great teacher.
 
#114 ·
Admin Note

I keep trying to ask questions and have a reasonable discussion here but you guys keep arguing like this is WWF or something. Can't we just talk about this thing without everyones ego's getting in the way!
Yep, and it's been going on for a while already :( Why didn't someone reported this thread earlier?
Anyway, I'm going to have a further look at this thread to see if I can remove some of the noise without taking away coherence and re-open the discussion in a short while -- This is an interesting discussion, it would be a shame to close or delete it

Thanks for your patience

EDIT: & thanks to Mike for finishing the job for me
 
#115 ·
OK everyone,

I've clipped out all the silly drama from this thread. In order to keep this potentially valuable topic from slipping permanently into the void of storage, please refrain from the bickering, petty sniping, and soap opera drama.

As always, let's keep this discussion on track, and be respectful of one another.
 
#119 ·
As far as I'm concerned Joe Allard was the bee's knees. His concepts, or what I've been able to glean of them secondhand, have been helpful to me in some cases, and in others paralleled developments I've come across on my own. I think the notion of hearing before playing is crucial, and "voicing" the notes is precisely what I've come to do, though the physiology of it is beyond me. Thanks to garyjones for the information at the beginning of this thread and Nefertiti for passing it on.
 
#120 ·
I studied with Joe Allard the same time Tom did. I agree with his assessment that Joe didn't fix what wasn't broken. A coupla things:
Somebody said something about "biting down", nobody is capable of biting down, you can only bite up. While Joe would cringe at the idea of a Joe Allard "method" he would certainly profess a few basic principles that applied to any method and offer a myriad of exercises that helped players understand them. From a physiology viewpoint it's really the same as finding the contraction in your lats rather than trying to get over the bar in a pull up.

3 variables: 1) how much reed in your mouth and/or where you are applying pressure to the reed. You can easily play two octaves on a mouthpiece by moving the whole deal in and out of your mouth, moving your jaw will screw up your jaw. 2) how much pressure applied to the reed and/or biting it closed so no air gets through to no pressure. Joe said chew! you can change pitch that way too, but not so far (maybe a 5th or so) 3) how much air pressure you use. Start by breathing so you hear air and gradually increase air speed until each note speaks.

Don't use your glottis, no feeling in the throat at all, tongue in a heee position to facilitate air pressure, articulate with the tongue between the reed and the mouthpiece, thick lower lip muffles sound, thin lip frees sound, upper teeth with/without upper lip covering for double-lip clarinet is the receiving body of the jaw pressure.

Not for nothin' Joe could and would sing every note he played in the octave he was playing it in, so he did use the Sinta voicing thing but from a different direction.

This is an interesting thread but remember that Allard had a million different exercises designed to help students grasp principles, but he kept the principles really clear and simple.

Dave in NYC
 
#123 ·
I'm pretty sure, my #2 example is not what Gary Jones had in mind with that exercise. It just doesn't follow the basic principles of this style of playing, vocal cords notwithstanding. My training NEVER targeted vocal cords. As for the #2 exercise, what I did was basically move the tongue as if to say, "yyyyyyyyuuuuuuuh," with the pitch bend happening during the transition between "eee" and "uuh." If I try it with a relaxed jaw, I can barely get the mouthpiece pitch to waver by moving my tongue. It changes the timbre, though. The pitch doesn't seem to change much on the horn, either. Tongue position is all about timbre for me. I get a solid, warm core to the tone when I play with a high tongue position.

In the end, and I think anyone who participated in this thread will agree, the mouthpiece exercise, whatever the goal, are very helpful, but what really matters is the tone on the instrument. If you can get those low notes to speak softly without subtone, and still fill the room with your sound at that low volume, you're good to go. That's my litmus test.
 
#124 ·
Thanks Dan. I tend to agree with your summation (tone on the instrument).

In all it seems we covered a number of different things...

1. The Allard exercise as posted by Gary...change pitch on the mouthpiece alone without changing mouth position, using only the natural mechanisms that would be involved in singing.

2. The idea of using the tongue position to change pitch on the mouthpiece.

3. The idea of "voicing" or what I've also heard referred to as "voice tuning" which seems to be a hybrid of these two.

Still not sure if anyone here has chimed in to say they can do the first one, say, at an octave. Maybe I missed it, it's become a long thread. Some can do #2 and I'm not sure if we really spoke that much about #3.

Beyond that there is the overtone series which seems to be facilitated by these ideas. And changing tonal color as well.
 
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